Laverda 3c, changing of the charging coils

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Restomoto

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Hi,
Please can you help me?
I have a original HKZ ignition system (3C, year 1974) with smaller and lager coils. Can I change a smaller coil (lower) to larger one ( I have an extra larger coil) without making any other changing to wiring. So I simply connect the wires of the lager coil in the same way how the existing (smaller coils) wires were. Does this bring an extra 20W charging power.
I have also planned to change the whole system to more sophisticated Redax system but that changing is still under planning.
I would appreciate your help
With Best Regards
Erkki

 
Hello Erkki

There are two small coils (one is hidden behind the other) and one large coil in the HKZ alternator system. The large coil is the 12V charging coil. One of the small coils powers the HKZ ignition system and the other small coil performs a voltage regulation function.

You can indeed change the two small coils for one large one and effectively double the output of the charging system. But in doing so, you lose the voltage regulation function and the power to the ignition system.

Voltage regulation can be fixed by replacing the existing rectifier with a regulator rectifier (RR).

I don't think you can run the original HKZ ignition system from a 12V supply, so you would also need to install an aftermarket ignition. A DMC or Ignitech will work with the original pickups.

Cam
 
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What you are planning is what John Wilson first did to my 3c before the Kawasaki Altinator was thought of.But as Cam said he also fitted his EI to make this work.Great minds think alike
 
Hi Dellortoman and Vince,

Thank You,
Thanks specially to Dellortoman of his expert advice and Vince of his exerience.
I will start to consider a more serious ignition/charging option for the next season. I managed last summer with 20W halogen parking light and the charger in the luggage.
Best regards
Ciao,
Erkki
 
Hello Erkki

There are two small coils (one is hidden behind the other) and one large coil in the HKZ alternator system. The large coil is the 12V charging coil. One of the small coils powers the HKZ ignition system and the other small coil performs a voltage regulation function.

You can indeed change the two small coils for one large one and effectively double the output of the charging system. But in doing so, you lose the voltage regulation function and the power to the ignition system.

Voltage regulation can be fixed by replacing the existing rectifier with a regulator rectifier (RR).

I don't think you can run the original HKZ ignition system from a 12V supply, so you would also need to install an aftermarket ignition. A DMC or Ignitech will work with the original pickups.

Cam
Hi can you tell me how the dmc coil upgrade is wired in please as I have inherited a Witt ign system with a charging coil upgrade,the new coil has no wires on it and the old coil looks like it had 4421140C9-8D00-4A56-A81D-FF3770B4A3C8.jpeg9A311A18-3E47-4801-BD8D-BD2AA67F7458.jpeg
 

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That's a very early Witt ignition system. Those old blue box ignitions had a few issues. I had one on my Jota many years ago, but it died about 10 years ago and I replaced it with an Ignitech. You might be lucky and it'll work OK. It's worth a try anyway.

When converting from the old Bosch HKZ system, you need to replace those two small alternator coils (that you've already removed) with another charging coil like the one on the other side. You won't have enough alternator output with just the one alternator coil, because the Witt ignition system will be running off the bike's 12V electrical system (the HKZ system was independently powered by the coils you just removed). The alternator coils are readily available new from Laverda parts suppliers. Or you can get perfectly good used ones from anyone who has upgraded to a different type of alternator. I think I have a couple lying around, but I'm on the other side of the world.

You can run the bike without the additional charging coil for the purpose of road-testing the Moto Witt ignition. In fact, you don't need the alternator at all (as Maurice mentioned above). It'll run perfectly OK (for a while) if the battery is charged up.

The Witt ignition also used a different (two lobe) ignition rotor, which may be the one that's already fitted to the crankshaft. The rotor and extra charging coil usually come with the ignition kit, so if the previous owner gave you a heap of parts with the bike, the coil may be amongst them.

You'll also need a pair of ignition coils. One single output and one double. Any 3-5 Ohm coils from a Japanese bike should be OK.

There are a couple of ways to wire the alternator coils depending on the type of regulator/rectifier used (whether it's single or 3 phase). Note that you can't just retain the original unregulated rectifier when you add the extra charging coil. You'll need a voltage regulator. Most people buy a used one from a Japanese bike.

The Witt ignition is designed to use the Laverda's original VR pickups, so you'll need to re-attach some wires to those cut-off wire tails.

It looks like the previous owner intended to fit the Witt blue box in a Tupperware container. That's not a good idea because it needs cooling air.

There's plenty of info on installing the various Moto Witt ignitions on this forum if you use the search function.

There's also info in the library. Go to the Library section in the pull-down menus above. Select "Other manufacturer info", then "Moto Witt (DMC ignition)". Your blue box is a DMC1. There doesn't appear to be an installation instruction manual for the DMC1, but it's basically the same as for the DMC2. The differences are minor: As far as I recall, the DMC2 has a multi-pin connector and a different type of switch for selecting the advance curve.
 
That's a very early Witt ignition system. Those old blue box ignitions had a few issues. I had one on my Jota many years ago, but it died about 10 years ago and I replaced it with an Ignitech. You might be lucky and it'll work OK. It's worth a try anyway.

When converting from the old Bosch HKZ system, you need to replace those two small alternator coils (that you've already removed) with another charging coil like the one on the other side. You won't have enough alternator output with just the one alternator coil, because the Witt ignition system will be running off the bike's 12V electrical system (the HKZ system was independently powered by the coils you just removed). The alternator coils are readily available new from Laverda parts suppliers. Or you can get perfectly good used ones from anyone who has upgraded to a different type of alternator. I think I have a couple lying around, but I'm on the other side of the world.

You can run the bike without the additional charging coil for the purpose of road-testing the Moto Witt ignition. In fact, you don't need the alternator at all (as Maurice mentioned above). It'll run perfectly OK (for a while) if the battery is charged up.

The Witt ignition also used a different (two lobe) ignition rotor, which may be the one that's already fitted to the crankshaft. The rotor and extra charging coil usually come with the ignition kit, so if the previous owner gave you a heap of parts with the bike, the coil may be amongst them.

You'll also need a pair of ignition coils. One single output and one double. Any 3-5 Ohm coils from a Japanese bike should be OK.

There are a couple of ways to wire the alternator coils depending on the type of regulator/rectifier used (whether it's single or 3 phase). Note that you can't just retain the original unregulated rectifier when you add the extra charging coil. You'll need a voltage regulator. Most people buy a used one from a Japanese bike.

The Witt ignition is designed to use the Laverda's original VR pickups, so you'll need to re-attach some wires to those cut-off wire tails.

It looks like the previous owner intended to fit the Witt blue box in a Tupperware container. That's not a good idea because it needs cooling air.

There's plenty of info on installing the various Moto Witt ignitions on this forum if you use the search function.

There's also info in the library. Go to the Library section in the pull-down menus above. Select "Other manufacturer info", then "Moto Witt (DMC ignition)". Your blue box is a DMC1. There doesn't appear to be an installation instruction manual for the DMC1, but it's basically the same as for the DMC2. The differences are minor: As far as I recall, the DMC2 has a multi-pin connector and a different type of switch for selecting the advance curve.
Hi and thanks for your reply really appreciated,I have inherited this mess when I purchased the bike ,the guy who did this was. Total amateur,stripping the thread ,and butchered the coil out ,he told me that this was. a kit he bought many years ago and was new when purchased ideally I’d like to get one of reds complete systems but thought I would just get it running and see what I’ve got before spending large amounts of dosh ,already I need collector box and down pipes but want to hear it run before I spend big money once again thanks
 
That's a very early Witt ignition system. Those old blue box ignitions had a few issues. I had one on my Jota many years ago, but it died about 10 years ago and I replaced it with an Ignitech. You might be lucky and it'll work OK. It's worth a try anyway.

When converting from the old Bosch HKZ system, you need to replace those two small alternator coils (that you've already removed) with another charging coil like the one on the other side. You won't have enough alternator output with just the one alternator coil, because the Witt ignition system will be running off the bike's 12V electrical system (the HKZ system was independently powered by the coils you just removed). The alternator coils are readily available new from Laverda parts suppliers. Or you can get perfectly good used ones from anyone who has upgraded to a different type of alternator. I think I have a couple lying around, but I'm on the other side of the world.

You can run the bike without the additional charging coil for the purpose of road-testing the Moto Witt ignition. In fact, you don't need the alternator at all (as Maurice mentioned above). It'll run perfectly OK (for a while) if the battery is charged up.

The Witt ignition also used a different (two lobe) ignition rotor, which may be the one that's already fitted to the crankshaft. The rotor and extra charging coil usually come with the ignition kit, so if the previous owner gave you a heap of parts with the bike, the coil may be amongst them.

You'll also need a pair of ignition coils. One single output and one double. Any 3-5 Ohm coils from a Japanese bike should be OK.

There are a couple of ways to wire the alternator coils depending on the type of regulator/rectifier used (whether it's single or 3 phase). Note that you can't just retain the original unregulated rectifier when you add the extra charging coil. You'll need a voltage regulator. Most people buy a used one from a Japanese bike.

The Witt ignition is designed to use the Laverda's original VR pickups, so you'll need to re-attach some wires to those cut-off wire tails.

It looks like the previous owner intended to fit the Witt blue box in a Tupperware container. That's not a good idea because it needs cooling air.

There's plenty of info on installing the various Moto Witt ignitions on this forum if you use the search function.

There's also info in the library. Go to the Library section in the pull-down menus above. Select "Other manufacturer info", then "Moto Witt (DMC ignition)". Your blue box is a DMC1. There doesn't appear to be an installation instruction manual for the DMC1, but it's basically the same as for the DMC2. The differences are minor: As far as I recall, the DMC2 has a multi-pin connector and a different type of switch for selecting the advance curve.
 
Hi rob can’t seem to find anything that determines witch tag is for yellow wire and witch is for yellow/black on the new coilView attachment 57466View attachment 57466
Hi all have had a great look at this coil and there’s only one wire connector and on the top coil there’s 2 now I’m assuming that the mounting bolts are neg and the connect tag for the wire in the output , can anyone confirm please
 
Hi all have had a great look at this coil and there’s only one wire connector and on the top coil there’s 2 now I’m assuming that the mounting bolts are neg and the connect tag for the wire in the output , can anyone confirm please
As far as I am aware, the replacement charging coil should have two tags and normally has the yellow and yellow black wires attached. The mounting bolts aren't usually used as an earth return path... the iron core wouldn't be effective in doing its job if it were... You'd also be mixing AC coil output with the rectified DC neutral.

You can check to see if there is continuity between the one tag and the core with a multmeter. I doubt there is... normally would indicate a faulty coil.

Also, the replacement charging coil isn't usually wrapped, instead the varnished wire coil is visible. May be worth carefully unwrapping the coil to see what's going on underneath.

Once you've sorted coil tag connections, its polarity will have to be determined by running the engine. If it's wrong the two coils will oppose each other with next to no voltage output.

Also see https://www.laverdaforum.com/xf/resources/9/
 
I don't get it, those Coils on the alternator cover aren't upgrade coils but the old crappy ones. The upgrade looks exactly like the shiny one that is fitted on top. And to add to your confusion, the upgraded coils can be run without a regulator.
 
And is the yellow/black neg and yellow pos
I don't get it, those Coils on the alternator cover aren't upgrade coils but the old crappy ones. The upgrade looks exactly like the shiny one that is fitted on top. And to add to your confusion, the upgraded coils can be run without a regulator.
thanks for your reply and you are totally right as I have just found out ,this isn’t the upgrade it’s the shite that has bee removed to accept the new coil ,so now I need another charge coil if anyone has one and in the uk .sorry for the confusion as I was told when I bought it that it was the upgrade
 

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As red said insulation on pick up coils totally disintegrated common fault apparently so new insulation but can these be metered out ? Saw a post from piet and he says these are quite robust coils ,hope he’s right ,if not new system
 

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First thing I did on my 3c was get new Ignitech ignition, coils and charging from Red,
Simple, easy to install and no more issues.
You might want to give him a day or two but .....
the whole of Queensland is in shock just now...... :rolleyes:
 
First thing I did on my 3c was get new Ignitech ignition, coils and charging from Red,
Simple, easy to install and no more issues.
You might want to give him a day or two but .....
the whole of Queensland is in shock just now...... :rolleyes:
What’s happening in queensland just now?
 
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