Caveat Emptor

piranha-bro2

piranha-bro2

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Location
Melbourne
Q. When is a camshaft, not a camshaft? A. When it is only half a camshaft.

I'm sure some members of this forum have engaged successfully with Ralfs plying his wares of Laverda parts on here. My experience has been somewhat less satisfying. I won't say what I'm really thinking; I will simply copy in the email thread that ensued after I purchased a lefthand ND switchblock and a 4S camshaft from this seller. They were 'advertised' under the post heading 'Some Nice Parts ...' via a photo of a jumble of parts strewn across a table, another photo of bits piled up on a shelf. Separate photos showed close-ups of a 6C cam and a 4S cam, presumably to assure buyers that the stampings proved the provenance of what was being offered. Text in the listing read 'camshaft - 4S' and 'camshaft - 6C'. After brief email negotiations a price of 340 euro was agreed ... not what I would call cheap but I could live with it (Andy W at Laverda Paradies sells this COMPLETE camshaft for 360 euro - anyone familiar with Andy's prices will be able to put that into context).

When the package arrived, half the cam was missing - and this is where the 'fun' started. Here is the email I sent Mr Ralfs:

Hi Ralf
Box arrived today. I got a shock when I opened it and discovered that there was only one half of a 4S camshaft! I remembered seeing just the one side in one of the photos you posted but in another photo it showed what i thought were both sides (photo attached). I realise when looking at them now that they are BOTH right hand cam halves. (EDIT - actually wrong - there are both LEFT and RIGHT cam halves!)

Unfortunately one half of a camshaft is of no use to me at all. I really had no idea you were offering only one half of these. On top of what I have paid to you it would be far too expensive for me to try and buy the left half of these, if i could find them at all.

Are you OK for me to send you back the cam for a refund. You can decide what you would have sold it for without the left hand switch.

I'm really sorry. I just completely misunderstood. I actually have good cams for my custom rebuild, but have always liked the idea of the 4S cams for a road bike, When I saw yours and you offered them at a decent price i thought i would get them (my wife was not very happy!).

Vielen Dank,
Quentin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And here is the response:

Hello Quentin, that's never happened to me before. I send a beautiful Laverda part abroad at a very fair price, with all the associated hassle, and an old Laverda enthusiast and connoisseur complains. Sorry, but that's really not my problem. Safe travels. Ralf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My response:

Ralf! Please, that is incredibly unfair. I NEVER complained. I simply said I misunderstood what you were offering for sale. My fault - yes, for not making EXACTLY sure what I thought you were offering. Please go back and read my email again. I did NOT complain and I did not blame you. Perhaps there is something lost in translation, but your reaction has completely surprised me.

All I have said is that I cannot use half a camshaft and I have asked if you will come up with a price that you think is fair and refund me that amount. I will send back this part - which unfortunately is of absolutely no use to me. What do you think I should do? Of course I am going to ask you to help me out - as a fellow Laverda owner and a member of this forum. Your hard work has been very much appreciated and has not been a waste oif time - I have bought the left hand switch from you.

Please consider again what I am requesting you do - it is me that has to package the part and send it back to you. There is NO more work asked of you other than paying some money back to me.

Quentin

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
His final word:

Hi Quentin, I'm old and don't need the parts. One motorcycle is enough for me, and I have plenty of spare parts for it.
I've offered parts in the forum that can be shipped very cheaply all over the world. You're the only one so far who wants to return something, and that's not common practice even among Laverda enthusiasts. Please do business with others in the future and don't buy from me anymore. I also strongly advise against posting negative things in the forum. I sent you exactly the parts I described and pictured at a very low price.
I'm sure you'll find a solution. Best wishes from the old world. Ralf
>>>>>>>>>>>>

While I now firmly believe that the parts on offer were (inadvertently or otherwise) misrepresented in both the photos and the text, I called upon the seller to engage in basic goodwill and fairness rather than resort to apportioning blame. After all, this forum is a community of Laverda owners and enthusiasts and not Faceplant Marketplace or FleeBay.

Unfortunately, requests via the forum moderator/s to the seller for a more reasonable and respectful response has ended in another 'up yours'. What saddens me is that this whole saga would have been resolved with no fuss, no drama, no insults. A misunderstanding - if for no other reason than a 'camshaft' in a Laverda SF/C twin is not half a camshaft, and an asking price of 313 euro after shipping cost is deducted would clearly indicate that a camshaft is what was on offer. Had the text read 'camshaft right hand only - 4S' as if I would have been even remotely interested. Now I just feel thoroughly pissed off.

Caveat Emptor indeed. But to people wanting to treat this forum as a saleyard in their profitmaking ventures, I say be honest and be fair. If you want to play the hard sell, get yourself a used car yard and call yourself Arfur Daly..

Quentin
PS In the market for a good LEFT HAND 4S camshaft! I have Wolfgang on the case - fingers crossed.
 
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Sorry to hear that, Quentin.
I have, in the past, had a similar experience with parts bought through the Forum.
This was eventually resolved, but still at significant cost to me.
While someone outside the Laverda community might be excused for not clearly and correctly describing a spare part, it should not be possible for a Laverdaphile to do so.
I hope that you get a resolution to the problem. In the meantime, it may serve other Forum Members to avoid purchasing from sellers such as above.
 
Whoowh, that's simply factually incorrect! He paid a very fair €150 for the camshaft part from my clearly illustrated offer, excluding shipping...
 
I vaguely recall the ad since I was interested in the ND switch control pod, and sorry to hear this happened. I’ll look for the ad, and please post pics of what you received.

If possible, the Forum should post seller’s ratings or history, like other Forums offer.
 
TeddyG said:
I vaguely recall the ad since I was interested in the ND switch control pod, and sorry to hear this happened. I’ll look for the ad, and please post pics of what you received.

If possible, the Forum should post seller’s ratings or history, like other Forums offer.
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The forum is enough work without vetting sales- it should be done on trust . I always write a complete description, warts and all so you don’t get this problem. I would have thought half a camshaft should be clearly sold as “ only half of a camshaft” and price wise it would be scrap value as you would need the other half.
 
I looked for the original “nice parts” ad but don’t see it, and it appears Ralf deleted or changed it.
The only way of getting to the bottom is to see that ad and pics, and then pics of what the buyer received.
A few years ago I was swindled after buying an Aprilia that was not as advertised, and the Aprilia Forum kindly blacklisted the seller.
Unfortunately, trust alone doesn’t apply to some sellers-
 
I have to say that I know Ralf personally since years, also from different meetings here in Germany and in Breganze. I also bought serveral parts from him, i. e. the short exhaust pipes in my avatar. All deals were absolutely correct and we always had good agreements about prices and delivery. I hope Quentin and Ralf will find a way to clearify their problem.
 
I have seen Ralfs offer at kleinanzeigen.de and would buy the 4s Cam. After a 2nd look to the Pictures i asked Ralf per Mail, if his offer means a complete Cam or only a half, rhd-side, because there was only a picture of the rhd-side.
He told me, it was only the Rhd-Cam.

So i think, it is not Ralfs fault, because it was clearly visible, what he offers.

Regards
Rainer
 
Ralfs said:
Whoowh, that's simply factually incorrect! He paid a very fair €150 for the camshaft part from my clearly illustrated offer, excluding shipping...
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Ralfs, Q is not asking for much, simply a refund upon return to you of the said camshaft. Obviously, there was a breakdown in understanding of what was being offered and what the buyer received. Q is prepared to pay for the return mailing, you get the part/cam(1/2) back, you refund the money, it costs you nothing. Failure to resolve satisfactorily for both parties is not in the spirit of the Laverda Forum community.
 
Ralfs said:
Whoowh, that's simply factually incorrect! He paid a very fair €150 for the camshaft part from my clearly illustrated offer, excluding shipping...
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I'm not quite sure how you arrive at that figure. 340 euro, minus 27 euro for shipping ... 313 euro. Minus 150 euro you claim you sold the cam for ... leaves 163 euro for a nicely worn left hand switchblock. So what's it to be? I've either been ripped off for half a cam or ripped off for a left hand switchblock. The switchblock has as much play in the indicator mechanism as the 50 year old one on my bike that i was hoping to replace - but that's a different story.

I've already received a reply from Wolfgang and he has a left hand cam 4S cam half in perfect condition for CAD$190 (118 euro) plus shipping to Australia. Piet also has the part I need

This conversation is pointless - the issue I've tried to highlight is that there MUST be an element of goodwill and decency in transactions via our forum - i reiterate, we are a community of owners and enthusiasts, not Facebook Marketplace or Ebay. As Dave above has stated, there was a clear misunderstanding and the fairest way to resolve it would have been to concede this and arrive at a compromiise.

A precedent of having sold parts to happy customers in the past has zero bearing on what transpires ongoing.
 
Unfortunately it is a caveat emptor dog eat plastic cup world out there but sellers also are fairly expected to not be deceptive or misrepresent their wares. Also, that goods be fit for service. Yes, it does engage a clear question of morality.

May I implore the old world God of Thor to help me if the new piston rings for my twin that I’ve just paid a market ballpark price for arrive and are rings for one piston only!
Sure they may not have been clearly advertised as ‘one piston only’ rings notwithstanding the common expectation that they are a pair or two not unlike a camshaft.
Then to say that it is not my problem to the buyer is amoral. Beware as opportunistic dogs are always sniffing for plastic cups!
 
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I thought a completed contract required the meeting of the minds, plural. I always try to use PayPal and credit cards so disputes have a neutral umpire. From memory, the only dispute I ever had was a part not arriving. With one phone call, they sent another part immediately at their expense. I felt terrible and offered to pay half the cost, but before we got to that, the first part turned up, so I sent it back at my own expense. I just remembered another story. I ordered a Morad rim from England to Australia, expecting a Borani ribbed style, as that's what I ordered, but it turned up and was not ribbed. I am thinking thats $400 down the drain, but Central Wheel suggested I send it to there Australin Distributer in Brisbane at my cost and they sent me the correct rim at there expence. I was absolutely happy with there completey profesional compramise.
 
If I would try to buy a complete ( i.e a pair of) camshaft,
there has to be at least one picture of the 2 together.
If that's not the case I would enquire further information.

Ernesto
 
rocketonarail said:
Dare I say looking at Ernesto`s avatar ............ Do you get just the one pictured , or do you get the pair ? ..........

As Ernesto says , I would definitely like to see at least one picture of the two together ..........


( Sorry Q ........ Hope you get some recompense eventually ....... ) .............
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They have been there a long time and consequently are substantially a lot lower now
 
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