Ident my bitza

[cwis]

Hi all,

I've been looking at the "For Sale" thread, where you all can identify non standard parts on bikes from about 300 miles. I thought you'd like to have a go at identifying the various bikes mine is made out of!

Its been in its present for for about 8 years, cos I've had it that long. The chap who had it before me had it about 5 years and didn't change it much by all accounts. I think it was originally registered in Italy.

The tank is badly faded, by the way - it's a metallic red-maroon colour where it's shaded by the seat. I do not know where the side panels and rear duckbill got their colour, but in sunlight they look amazing, and I'll probably get this paintjob refreshed and applied to the tank too in the next couple of years....

Best regards,

Chris

 

[Reggie3cl]

I would have thought with upright shocks it should have thin web wheels.  The mudguard has been hacked about and the horns are the wrong type and in the wrong place.  Grips and bar ends are not correct either.  Clutch lever looks wrong too.  Interesting that it seems to have the lay down shock mount too.

 

[cwis]

Hi Reggie,

It had a thin web rear wheel, with a huge buckle in it. I replaced it with what was available at the time - a thick web one. (About 5 years ago). At least it matches the front now!

I think it's a mirage frame? But the number on it is a 1000* one. Bit if a mystery. It's registered as a 1977 by the way, so am I right in thinking the disk should not be drilled?

Chris

I would have thought with upright shocks it should have thin web wheels.  The mudguard has been hacked about and the horns are the wrong type and in the wrong place.  Grips and bar ends are not correct either.  Clutch lever looks wrong too.  Interesting that it seems to have the lay down shock mount too.

 

[Grant]

The '78 Jota (gold) was a transition year between upright and laid down shocks, Ceriani and Marzocchi and thin web and thick web wheels, so who the hell knows what it started out as 30 odd years ago.
Discs should be undrilled but are you going to return it to standard?
It would cost a fortune IF you could find all the parts.

 

[cwis]

Hi Grant,

No - non standard it is.  The engine is out of a different bike so it's arguable what standard is.  I'm just going to get it mechanically and electrically sorted, stick a stainless exhaust on, paint it and ride the bugger.

I really like the paintjob (except the brown tank) - it's been suggested it was a period Dream Machine one but I've found no proof  (they usually mark inside a side panel). It goes from deep purple on top of the sidepanel, through the metallic orange and back to purple again.  I'll try and get a good shot of it later - standard it is not!

I think the tank is a replacement one - there's crash damage on the alternator cover and the lock stop was mashed up when I got it, plus scrape marks down the exhaust on that side - it looks like it was at quite a speed!

Best regards,

Chris

The '78 Jota (gold) was a transition year between upright and laid down shocks, Ceriani and Marzocchi and thin web and thick web wheels, so who the hell knows what it started out as 30 odd years ago.
Discs should be undrilled but are you going to return it to standard?
It would cost a fortune IF you could find all the parts.

 

[Dellortoman]

I'd guess a late 77 or early 78 frame for a number of reasons:
The 1200 frames had a different number series starting from 1000, so you're probably right about it being a mirage frame. The 1200's appeared in 1977 with double shock mounts that went through to 78. Rear master cylinder is on the left, so it's definitely between 76 and 80 (M/cyl went back to the right side in 80).

Forks are Ceriani. They changed to Marzocchi in late 78, but it's a later style front mudguard that was normally fitted to Marzocchi forks. Maybe a transition front end?

Horn mounting position is right for post 77 but the horn on the side we can see is not the original.

It's got 1000 on the primary case so I'd guess it's a 1000 motor. If the frame and engine numbers match, then I'd change that guess to a 1200 with a 1000 primary case.

Didn't the 120 Jota have a colour scheme something like that? It's a series 1 motor, so not a 120, but maybe someone nicked the tank and panels from a 120.

Drilled disks are a later fitting (around 1980 I think)

That's about all I can spot, except that you must have bloody big feet if you can reach the brake pedal with the footpeg at its rearmost setting like that 

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Grant]

As far as the UK market went the 120 Jota had the shorty 1200 sidepanels.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Cam,

I understood the "it has a 1000* number" as to be understood it has a Frame number from a 1000, not that the number itself starts with 1xxx. Just to be sure, maybe Chris can reconfirm it has the following syntax:

LAV10003CL*6xxx* (stamped into the headstock)

The color sheme was coming with the 1978 or 1979 or maybe even with the 1980 model (not sure 100%), still with the Bosch engine (as is equiped here). It was also available with 180?ND and 120? works-Jota's. Very rarely, they came in a similar color-sheme with silver and black (have only seen one in my life, but about 20 with red and black...).

here is how it looks in good condition (180? ND in that case...):

and here a rare black-silver one...:

 

[cwis]

Hi all - you lot are truly encylopedic!

Lothar - no headstock numbers - just one down by the swingarm pivot.

I've snapped the numbers (attached). It looks like the sidepanels and tail have standard paint (from somewhere) on then?

I've also attached a pic of the back of the tank, where the paint was shaded by the seat....

My feet aren't that big - but with the footrests forwards it feels like I'm siting on the loo! Currently I take my foot off the footpeg to apply the rear brake - not optimal.

Chris

 

[Rob]

Chris - my poor eyes are struggling to read the frame number - is it 1357?  Doubtful since that puts it as a '74 frame!!  As a '77 bike it should be up in the 5-6000 range.  The engine number looks as though its been altered... 
Difficult to see from your original photo if the frame has the brackets for inclined rear shock: there is no sign of the grab handle which preceded this change so maybe it is a '79 which ties in with grab rail & indicator mounting.  If there is no frame number on the headstock it's not a 1200 frame...which are also stamped down by the swingarm pivot.  Ceriani rear shocks stopped in '78.  Front mudguard is not Laverda.

 

[3patC]

Bit suspicious these numbers but still a lovely bike. Regards Pat.

 

[cwis]

Yup - 1357. Replacement frame or complete fabrication?  Looks like the middle two digits have been overpunched on the engine too. Can't really tell what the originals were (one looks like a 9? And there's the punch mark after the final digit and before the final * too - what does that mean?

I'll try and find out the import documents later tonight - I got a bunch of paperwork with the bike all those years ago that I've only flicked through. I know nothing has changed on the bike since it came to the UK though, in the early 90's.

Seems a lot of effort to create a ringer back when these bikes weren't worth very much at all though!

I swapped my 3 year old VFR800 in 2001/2 for this bike and a near mint 400/4 (at the time) so I'm not really bothered about provenance - just the story of how this bike came to exist and what it comprises of!

Best regards,

Chris

Chris - my poor eyes are struggling to read the frame number - is it 1357?  Doubtful since that puts it as a '74 frame!!  As a '77 bike it should be up in the 5-6000 range.  The engine number looks as though its been altered... 
Difficult to see from your original photo if the frame has the brackets for inclined rear shock: there is no sign of the grab handle which preceded this change so maybe it is a '79 which ties in with grab rail & indicator mounting.  If there is no frame number on the headstock it's not a 1200 frame...which are also stamped down by the swingarm pivot.  Ceriani rear shocks stopped in '78.  Front mudguard is not Laverda.

 

[Cosi]

Seems a lot of effort to create a ringer back when these bikes weren't worth very much at all though!

Probably cause its made up from parts that were acquired in a questionable manner

You would be able to get that registered in Australia with the cases fucked up like that, clearly been restamped albeit very poorly

anyone missing 5905 or 5995 ?

 

[Dellortoman]

My '77 1200 was number 1218 and didn't have a number on the headstock, only on the engine mounting plate like Chris'. (I wonder where my old 1218 is now. I sold it to a guy in Darwin in 2007 who has since sold it on.)

JLO's registry lists 1357 as a 1978 1200. 

As for the engine, 5005 puts it in the 77 range. But on close inspection of your photo it looks very much like it was 5965 which puts is in the 78 range. I reckon Cosi is on the money - it has probably had a dodgy history. Been nicked or re-birthed for some other reason (insurance scam?).

There's also a faint 0 before the 5, probably where the guy inadvertently tapped it with the stamp when he was dong the 0's. The mark after the last digit looks like a crap attempt to tack a 1 on to the end of the number to make it 50051. Clearly an amateurish job at disguising the original number.

You're a brave man posting that pic on the internet Chris. You might have the original owner or the boys in blue knocking on your door

Cheers,
Cam

 

[cwis]

My '77 1200 was number 1218 and didn't have a number on the headstock, only on the engine mounting plate like Chris'. (I wonder where my old 1218 is now. I sold it to a guy in Darwin in 2007 who has since sold it on.)

Was it LAV1000* on the frame number though?

I think this bike was created from bits imported from Italy in the early 90's - I have an invoice for a headlight shell and other bits separate from the rest of the bike, so it looks like it sat somewhere and was built up steadily - quite a job in the years before the  internet.

My thought is - why bother? A UK 3CL at the time would have been a couple of grand. Back then a quick switch of country would have "legitimised" parts with numbers on it - the community was far smaller and disconnected then.

If anyone has a claim on any of the bits then what will be will be - I'm only looking after this bike as it passes through time in any case. If anyone wants it back then at least it will run properly!

Chris

 

[Dellortoman]

Was it LAV1000* on the frame number though?

You've got me there. I don't remember, but it was a matching number 1200 so should have been LAV1200*1218*. I only recorded the 1218 bit.

I don't have any photos that show numbers so I'm going from memory when I say it was on the engine plate. It's just that I don't recall seeing any numbers on the headstock.

Sorry about that (missing the 1000 on yours). LAV1000*1357* would be a very early (pre oil cooler?) 1000 triple frame, 1973 according to JLO's registry. Dosn't make sense with the forward shock mounts, if indeed that is a forward shock mount we can see in the photo.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[mcnicol]

Cam

No, that's not a forward shock mount, it's a forward attachment for a long grab bar, which wasn't present on any 3cs. I also think there's a frame tab just visble under the back of the seat for a bolt-on 3c style seat. The shocks are original compression-damped only Cerianis, although all the paint has gone off them, they must be doing a spectacular job by now. Upgrading a 74 frame to cast wheels would have required adding a frame bracket for the master cylinder, which is visible with apparently non factory quality welding, and swapping the swing arm as well as the wheels. Don't know why you'd bother, though, those bits would have cost a lot back when this assembly was done.
If the story of this bike ever emerges it'll be fascinating. This might even be a product of a Laverda chop shop, where whoever put together a bunch of extra parts. Or it could be Luigi having a lot too much grappa one lunchtime in Breganze...

Ken

 

[Lav the impala]

My frame starts with LAV1000/1, last two digits on my motor were ball peined and re-stamped at the factory, not just re-stamped over whatever numbers were there in the first place.

Vlad.

 

[cwis]

Hi all,

I'll take some better photos - of the front shock mounts/grab rail mounts, and the rear brake hanger. Anywhere else?

Chris