Keep On Running.....

Haggis

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Location
UK
Hi All. Any thoughts on this one?

When less that 20-ish miles of running... Turn off the key and the engine stops as expected, i.e. regardless of whether in gear of not.

More miles than that, (i.e. fully hot) engine will only switch off when in neutral. If trying to key-off whilst in gear (with clutch in) then it just keep on going!

SF 750, DMC2.

I think I have a 12v leak path working it's way to the DMC? Maybe grounded out (or reduced V) by the grounding effect of the neutral switch?

Cheers, Hag.
 
Why it is heat affected is a bit of a mystery, but old wiring can cause strange problems. I think you need to take a close look at where your DMC is getting power from and where it earths to. The neutral globe has power to one side at all times when the ignition switch is turned on, and the neutral switch earths the other side of the globe and makes it light up. If the DMC is connected on this earth wire, a 3 watt bulb inline (series?) probably doesn?t draw enough current to prevent the DMC from working (lecko theory anyone?). I?d be tracing from the neutral switch back up to the globe, or just find where the DMC power is connected in your harness and make sure it is on a dedicated +. II?m going on general ignition theory, but hsve no experience with DMC but many other ignitions. On my bike I always have the ignition powered from it?s own fuse so that it isn?t affected by any other ancilliaries blowing a fuse.
 
Ha funny you should ask this question today, had the exact same issue with my drummer today well was yesterday also but today I decided to sort it.
I had the regulator wired to ignition + side as i wanted it that way................so still is just via a relay now....result OK now switch works as should.
.
Check how your regulator is wired up it may well be your issue.
 
Hi Paul,
I'm with Tippie , the neutral light  comes on when the switch earths out when bike in neutral, thats the difference.
Check out the wiring back  from the neutral switch.

Andy
 
Brett said:
Ha funny you should ask this question today, had the exact same issue with my drummer today well was yesterday also but today I decided to sort it.
I had the regulator wired to ignition + side as i wanted it that way................so still is just via a relay now....result OK now switch works as should.

Do you mean the regulator was connected to the "switched" side of the ignition key switch?  That would mean turning the switch off would only isolate the battery but you'd still have 12V from the charging system powering the ignition as long as the engine is running. So I'm not surprised the engine wouldn't switch off with the key switch (might shut down with kill switch depending how that's wired). A simpler solution than a relay would be to connect the RR output to the battery side of the ignition switch. That's the way normal people do it, but I guess you're not normal  ;)
 
Paul H said:
Hi All. Any thoughts on this one?

When less that 20-ish miles of running... Turn off the key and the engine stops as expected, i.e. regardless of whether in gear of not.

More miles than that, (i.e. fully hot) engine will only switch off when in neutral. If trying to key-off whilst in gear (with clutch in) then it just keep on going!

SF 750, DMC2.

I think I have a 12v leak path working it's way to the DMC? Maybe grounded out (or reduced V) by the grounding effect of the neutral switch?

Cheers, Hag.

As for Haggis' problem, it's a bit of a puzzle.

The engine shutting down when cold implies that the ignition system is powering down as it should when the key switch is turned off. Why else would the engine stop? So we can assume the ignition switch is working.

Running on when hot after the ignition is switched off is not unheard of. Tends to indicate carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (from running rich or burning oil) that can get very hot and act like a glow plug and fire the mixture even if there's no spark at the plug.

How the neutral light switch is involved is a bit of a mystery. I'm not on the same page as Tippie and Kermit. It's not unusual to earth the starter relay via the neutral switch to prevent starting in gear.  But if the ignition was earthed through the neutral switch, the engine would cut out as soon as you put it in gear, not the other way around (cutting out in neutral). 

So for the ignition to only switch off in neutral has me somewhat baffled. The only way (in theory) I can see that happening is if the 12V power supply to the ignition module is taken off the wire that goes to the neutral light.

When the engine is in gear, the DMC would be powered via the neutral light globe. Remember that the neutral light has 12V supplied to it all the time, so that 12V carries across to the -ve side of the lamp when there's no connection to earth at the neutral switch. So the whole neutral light system is at 12V all the way to the switch when in gear. When you select neutral, that power supply is earthed and the 12V drops to zero on the earth side of the lamp. So the ignition would lose its power and shut down. I don't know what current the DMC needs to fire up its little electronic brain. If it's only a few milliamps then I suppose it's possible that a trickle of power through that little neutral globe is enough. But why would anyone wire it that way? It would mean the bike can't start when in neutral, and surely Hag would have said something about that!

But even in the above case, the coils would need a separate supply because there's no way they could pull enough juice through the neutral light globe. In that case, switching the key switch off when in gear should still kill the engine because it'll cut power to the coils. So they'd need to be powered directly from the battery, which would flatten the battery when the bike is parked - another thing I'm sure Hag would have noticed. 

Now you see what I mean by it having me baffled.

The only conclusion I can come to is that it's not an electrical fault at all and the neutral light is a red herring. The ignition is working as it should (as I observed at the beginning of this diatribe).

So, if it's running on due to pre-ignition from glowing carbon embers, then the ignition system has nothing to do with it because it's already switched off as it should be. So it must be a mechanical phenomenon. Perhaps something to do with the drag on the clutch providing as smoothing effect to the engine when it's in gear as opposed to it being in neutral. Or maybe something related to the additional rotating mass of the gearbox main shaft when in neutral. OK, I'm grasping at straws.  ???

To answer Tippie's question about the 3W globe. A 3W drain wouldn't cause enough voltage drop in the rest of the electrical system to affect the ignition.

 
Dellortoman said:
Do you mean the regulator was connected to the "switched" side of the ignition key switch?  That would mean turning the switch off would only isolate the battery but you'd still have 12V from the charging system powering the ignition as long as the engine is running. So I'm not surprised the engine wouldn't switch off with the key switch (might shut down with kill switch depending how that's wired). A simpler solution than a relay would be to connect the RR output to the battery side of the ignition switch. That's the way normal people do it, but I guess you're not normal  ;)

All the early ones with the push-in Bosch (or were they Lucas? can never remember ::) ) ignition switches could be push started without a key.. I think the switch is there merely to supply power to the starter solenoid or some such...
 
If the kill relay fails on a CDI triple you have to stall it to kill the engine.
But that's a completely different system to the 750 ones.
 
AndyW said:
All the early ones with the push-in Bosch (or were they Lucas? can never remember ::) ) ignition switches could be push started without a key.. I think the switch is there merely to supply power to the starter solenoid or some such...

That is an urban myth...

If the ignition system was constantly powered,  the ignition coils would over-heat and the battery would run flat in short time.

Different story on the early triples  The magneto-powered CDI was controlled by a relay, which in turn was switched on and off by the ignition switch.  The switch also powered the starter relay.  The ignition cut-out relay simply earthed the CDI.  If this relay was disconnected, the bike could be bump-started without needing a key.

The switches were supplied by Bosch.

piet
 
Dellortoman said:
Do you mean the regulator was connected to the "switched" side of the ignition key switch?  That would mean turning the switch off would only isolate the battery but you'd still have 12V from the charging system powering the ignition as long as the engine is running. So I'm not surprised the engine wouldn't switch off with the key switch (might shut down with kill switch depending how that's wired). A simpler solution than a relay would be to connect the RR output to the battery side of the ignition switch. That's the way normal people do it, but I guess you're not normal  ;)
Yep correct Cam I had it wired to the ignition plus side of the switch, when cold and idling no issue but when warm and engine spinning a bit higher there was enough current to keep the engine running .....but fixed it  by slotting in a relay.
Could have simply ran to battery positive but that would have been too easy  :o bit like making a pillow out of a plastic bottle

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I don't get this DMC stuff for street use. Stick to Points that will hit 8000 rpm year after year and can be fixed on a road side stop with a Nail File, Cleaning fluid and a Feeler Gauge.

Kinda wish you 3 Cyl guys would tune out at times, he's talking about a Breganzie 750 SF Twin ;o)

No doubt there's a learning curve regarding mechanic's involved with Boche Points and Coils - I say FUCK after market ECM's with theses Motorcycles. 8000 rpm is an extreme limit bit I could consistently hit 7500 to 7800 rpm on occasions using points - Year after Year with the same points.

Racing them for hours at top RPM on a race track is a different matter.

With all the Info I've read, on this forum, regarding the DMC unit, I can't see where that EMC conversion benefits the daily Starting, Idling and Performance for operation of a Breganzie Twin.

Plus the electrics are shit on the 750FS and can't maintain the level of voltage to operate a DMC unit.

----------------------

Word of advise get rid of that LUCAS Prince of Darkness Key Switch and replace it with an Industrial Toggle SX.

One other thing I've learned about riding a Breganzie SF for some 45 years is that they have Heavy Cast Iron valve that don't break but will pound the valve seats to death if you tend to keep her on the high end for any lenght of time - Suggest Ultra Lite Manley Valves with a new set of stock valve springs.
 
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