RGS stator wiring
- Thread starter woodlawn
- Start date
L
Legs
Guest
Shouldn't make a difference. Do you intend wiring one of the phases through the LH headlight switch as standard? This brings the third phase into circuit when the lights are on.
Andy
Hero member
- Location
- Auckland, roughly
Be careful to get the phase rotation correct otherwise the headlight will shine in your eyes...
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
Don't let Andy's phase rotation gag bother you Charlie. The phase pulses are all rectified to DC anyway, so it doesn't make any difference which way you do it. Connect them randomly and it will be OK.
Phase rotation is only an issue if you're driving a 3-phase motor from the alternator.
Phase rotation is only an issue if you're driving a 3-phase motor from the alternator.
Thanks. I gathered the phase rotation comment was a joke... the original five wire harness is intact, I can follow the schematic to see if the current wiring is wired thru the headlamp switch. If it's not should I? It hasn't been connected that way in at least 6 years and 12000 miles of riding.
L
Legs
Guest
I put a voltmeter across the battery terminals (engine running) and got between 13 and 15 volts, dependant on revs, which is adequate for keeping the battery charged, with the lights on, the voltage stayed much the same, indicating that the extra phase was doing it's job.
I believe the designers wired the bike up this way for good reason, to give the rectum fryer and easier time.
Might be a bit different now with newer design batteries, think they only had the humble lead-acid batteries back in the day.
I believe the designers wired the bike up this way for good reason, to give the rectum fryer and easier time.
Might be a bit different now with newer design batteries, think they only had the humble lead-acid batteries back in the day.
Andy
Hero member
- Location
- Auckland, roughly
I wouldn't bother wiring the third phase through the headlight switch, just connect it up. Some months ago I had a good conversation on here with a few of the gurus who pointed out that:
1. You almost always ride with the headlight on anyway, which makes the switching redundant
2. If you ride with the headlight off the third phase probably won't overcharge such a big battery anyway
3. The switch and connections are known to fail due to age and higher wattage headlight bulbs
I'd post a link if I knew how... ???
But I think that was the guts of it
1. You almost always ride with the headlight on anyway, which makes the switching redundant
2. If you ride with the headlight off the third phase probably won't overcharge such a big battery anyway
3. The switch and connections are known to fail due to age and higher wattage headlight bulbs
I'd post a link if I knew how... ???
But I think that was the guts of it
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
The original wiring that routed the third phase through the light switch was to limit the power being dumped through the original ND reg/rect. If that has been replaced with something capable of handling the staggering 210w output (!), then it is much better to connect all 3 phases direct.
Nowt to do with overcharging the battery, more about overloading the reg/rect.
Nowt to do with overcharging the battery, more about overloading the reg/rect.
breganzane
Hero member
- Location
- NSW Australia
Many years ago I put 'modern' (now "old") switchgear on my RGA, the headlight switch only had one pole vs the two pole switch of the original to allow the 3rd phase switching. I ran the 3rd phase direct to the reg and all was well with an original wet-cell battery (which are somewhat tolerant of over-voltage). Some time later I changed to an Odyssey AGM battery which failed pretty early, traced to high voltage at high rpm and minimal electrical load. I rigged up another relay to switch out the 3rd phase and all was again well. Later, it got a mosfet reg which would hold voltage at 13.8V no matter what, so the relay was removed. Trial and error alright!
So, if you have a modern good quality reg, you likely do not need to switch the 3rd phase. In original configuration those two terminals in the 9-pin plug to the LH switchblock are regularly in poor shape because they have comparatively high AC voltage going through them, and are only rated to 12VDC. I recall John Wilson talking about it and I think he was talking hundreds of VAC, so little wonder they melt. It was necessary at the time but not these days if you use a decent reg.
So, if you have a modern good quality reg, you likely do not need to switch the 3rd phase. In original configuration those two terminals in the 9-pin plug to the LH switchblock are regularly in poor shape because they have comparatively high AC voltage going through them, and are only rated to 12VDC. I recall John Wilson talking about it and I think he was talking hundreds of VAC, so little wonder they melt. It was necessary at the time but not these days if you use a decent reg.
Andy
Hero member
- Location
- Auckland, roughly
That's gold (thumbup)
I'm off to look at my reg now!
I'm off to look at my reg now!
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
I don't like to contradict Steve (or John Wilson!), but the issue with the connector is current, not voltage. Because the pins are carrying full output from the alternator winding continuously, any increase in contact resistance with age causes heat which eventually melts the connector block.
High voltage will break down insulation by tracking to an earth point. The connector block insulation will surely be good for hundreds of volts - and I doubt that you'll find more than 80v AC (open circuit) from the ND alternator.
High voltage will break down insulation by tracking to an earth point. The connector block insulation will surely be good for hundreds of volts - and I doubt that you'll find more than 80v AC (open circuit) from the ND alternator.
L
Legs
Guest
Thanks for the titbit: I'm having starting problems that I put down to a stuffed battery, will check the circuitry through the switch-block before forking out for a new Deka battery.
breganzane
Hero member
- Location
- NSW Australia
Hi Rob,
What you say makes perfect sense, and I am quite often wrong in many things, especially involving smoke. I probably misunderstood him - it was a common occurrence when John was talking about electricity.
It's at least 20 years ago, but I recall him railing about the original regulator, and talking about voltages up to 900V, something to do with the way the reg operated (shunt trip something something...), and melting plugs, but don't recall (and didn't understand) the detail. If John said it then there must be a truth in there somewhere, just perhaps not applicable in the parallel universe that the rest of us operate in. I have put a normal AC multimeter on those wires and as you say measured <100VAC and scratched my head at my recalled conversation. I suspect if the waveform were viewed on a super duper oscilloscope then perhaps we might see what he was saying, but once again pure supposition and perhaps I misinterpreted.
But if it's one phase of a 3ph 210W alternator, is that then 70W per phase (wire)? And if one of those conductors is carrying 70W and if it's say 70VAC, is that not 1 amp? Or perhaps some multiple allowing for the phase to phase, but still well under 2amps?
What you say makes perfect sense, and I am quite often wrong in many things, especially involving smoke. I probably misunderstood him - it was a common occurrence when John was talking about electricity.
It's at least 20 years ago, but I recall him railing about the original regulator, and talking about voltages up to 900V, something to do with the way the reg operated (shunt trip something something...), and melting plugs, but don't recall (and didn't understand) the detail. If John said it then there must be a truth in there somewhere, just perhaps not applicable in the parallel universe that the rest of us operate in. I have put a normal AC multimeter on those wires and as you say measured <100VAC and scratched my head at my recalled conversation. I suspect if the waveform were viewed on a super duper oscilloscope then perhaps we might see what he was saying, but once again pure supposition and perhaps I misinterpreted.
But if it's one phase of a 3ph 210W alternator, is that then 70W per phase (wire)? And if one of those conductors is carrying 70W and if it's say 70VAC, is that not 1 amp? Or perhaps some multiple allowing for the phase to phase, but still well under 2amps?
IIS
Full member
Oh no... Universe has stalled Cap'in. Scotty quick... a new RR.. the alternator cannot take it anymore.... still dicking around with RR and wiring from the Egyption first dynasty...... was looking for the Uniflow flter part number for 180 motors.... noticed this gem of a thread....
True enough, some here are correct.... open alternator 3 phase terminals, 90VAC rms or 1.414 times the rms equals peak voltage, times two for peak to peak, about 255V swing, this can high pot stress the magnet winding wire insulation and cause a shorted turn to occur.. either interwinding or to the frame or both, devil of a fault to diagnose unless you have "growler" what you dont have a growler.... tsk why are you working on alternators then, wry smile.
The RR is a shunt reg for the ND and similar type poly phase stators. Once you get to a threshold voltage, the internal SCR's fire and short out the phase, there are three SCR's for each phase, could be six though the principle remains the same.
So you have full short circuit current flowing between the RR and the alternator, why the usual 15amp spade connectors from the factory can go black, and or high resistance from heat stress. Measured the short circuit current once, cannot recall it today, though was well over 20amps per phase.
13.8V is to low at 3krpm and may be a failed phase indicator, 14.2-14.4VDC at battery terminals is what i get form SH530, tested them on the bench jig and wrote the actual shunt reg knee potential, in pencil. If some of you have my regs you may even see the measured output written on it on the epoxy filled side. Of course there is the sense wire on the SH530 that can manage IR drops through the wiring, or it can boil the daylights out of your battery just as easy with high IR drops on aged wiring. A case of high resistance wiring indeed overheating a battery.... there clear as mud... i will never change...grin...j.
True enough, some here are correct.... open alternator 3 phase terminals, 90VAC rms or 1.414 times the rms equals peak voltage, times two for peak to peak, about 255V swing, this can high pot stress the magnet winding wire insulation and cause a shorted turn to occur.. either interwinding or to the frame or both, devil of a fault to diagnose unless you have "growler" what you dont have a growler.... tsk why are you working on alternators then, wry smile.
The RR is a shunt reg for the ND and similar type poly phase stators. Once you get to a threshold voltage, the internal SCR's fire and short out the phase, there are three SCR's for each phase, could be six though the principle remains the same.
So you have full short circuit current flowing between the RR and the alternator, why the usual 15amp spade connectors from the factory can go black, and or high resistance from heat stress. Measured the short circuit current once, cannot recall it today, though was well over 20amps per phase.
13.8V is to low at 3krpm and may be a failed phase indicator, 14.2-14.4VDC at battery terminals is what i get form SH530, tested them on the bench jig and wrote the actual shunt reg knee potential, in pencil. If some of you have my regs you may even see the measured output written on it on the epoxy filled side. Of course there is the sense wire on the SH530 that can manage IR drops through the wiring, or it can boil the daylights out of your battery just as easy with high IR drops on aged wiring. A case of high resistance wiring indeed overheating a battery.... there clear as mud... i will never change...grin...j.
Ah John
To me makes perfect sense, damn fine regulator it shunts to earth via transistors, steve your mosfet is.. ( steady eddy trans something else ) instead of dodgy diodes not. Yes, hmmm.
John the answer to your question, uf26067, would be... You need in stock club spares if, me an email.
To me makes perfect sense, damn fine regulator it shunts to earth via transistors, steve your mosfet is.. ( steady eddy trans something else ) instead of dodgy diodes not. Yes, hmmm.
John the answer to your question, uf26067, would be... You need in stock club spares if, me an email.
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
Nice to hear from you John. It's been a while.
Not so good to know you will never change - your underpants will get pretty rancid after a while.
Not so good to know you will never change - your underpants will get pretty rancid after a while.