Redax Laverda

redax5 said:
no, spring retainers for the 750 set up are different, ones shown are for dual valve springs on a triple as used in our race engines
I have 750 retainers in stock to match a 7mm valve stem and recently landed the custom made 7mm x 750 valves
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OK, then put aside one set of retainers for my 7mm valve stems (in the same box as my two billet sump plate).

A CNC machined inlet port - I like the sound of that! My re-angled 39mm SFQ ports (from a small-valve head) will be a painstakingly long affair with the die grinder!!
 
Ok, lets play..... guess the price of a billet 3 valve head. My guess, around the ?3000 mark. Any one else fancy a guess?

FFFANARCHY
 
have a price of $8,000 +/- for a set of billet engine cases on the provision we machine them in lots of 5, programming is the main cost driver

not looked at the price on the heads but bit more involved as will require custom valves, valve springs, valve spring retainers, custom camshafts, custom cam blocks, custom inlet manifolds
lot of custom stuff involved and if we did do them believe the heads would not be suitable for a standard Laverda frame, you would need a frame similar to our Scorch race bikes or a Motodd frame, perimeter style frame in other words

or we could look at direct port injection and split throttle bodies to save room

not going to happen for at least 4 years anyway, have far to many engines and bikes to get through first
am thinking of going back to the oilfield to have a break for awhile




 
another CNC product for our small line of reproduction Laverda parts, triple valve spring caps
every time we get a 1980 cylinder head to refurbish we need to change the valve springs to the "standard" springs instead of using the short springs the 80's heads came with and that also means changing the valve spring caps
thus stocks are low on this part



 
redax5 said:
not looked at the price on the heads
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CNC guy over yesterday to pick up a triple cylinder head we just ported so he can scan the ports for future CNC Inlet porting work instead of hand porting every head
he was saying he is going to program up a single complete combustion chamber, ports, valve spring recess etc so we can set it up on the Flowbench and prove the concept and thus transferring that design to a complete head is not that much more programming so the billet heads may actually happen faster than we thought

we will concentrate on the two valve head first up with various changes to the ports and valve angles but able to be installed on a standard engine and fit in a standard triple frame
Plan is to machine them to accept a 33mm exhaust valve and a 42mm inlet valve but that may change after we start testing them
Probably use 6mm valve stems so we can use Beehive valve springs or stay with 7mm valve stems and use the PAC Alloy dual valve springs we are currently using in our race engines
changes to the combustion chamber shape, steel inserts in the main stud holes, few other changes we have in mind
is going to be an interesting journey and expensive for us initially

throwing figures around we think a billet head is going to be in the region of $4,500 AUD +/- for a bare billet head with tungsten alloy valve seats and Bronze alloy valve guides fitted

 
Stick with the 7mm valve stems. I've used 6mm stems - and 42mm valves - on the Aermacchis, and had heads come off too often for comfort. You'll lose a negligible amount of flow.
Three valve heads are a blind alley IMO. Go straight to four valves and don't waste your time.
If I get asked to do another big 2V motor - a remote possibility now as I'm trying to slow it down  - I'll go to a guy I know here with a CNC copy porting setup. He was showing me current 2V hemi port files which were very similar angles etc to big Suzukis and Kawasakis. He says he can change the scale to suit...
 
GregT said:
Three valve heads are a blind alley IMO. Go straight to four valves and don't waste your time.
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3 valves would certainly give some improvement. Better breathing and central spark plug. It would be a little cheaper to build than 4 valves because you can use the existing exhaust camshaft.

But I agree with Greg that it may not be the best for performance gain. One of the advantages of multiple valves is that each valve is smaller so has less reciprocating weight allowing higher revs, which generally means more power. That potential is lost if you retain a single big exhaust valve. Of course, if revs are limited by other things such as piston speed or con-rod stress, it doesn't matter.

I reckon if I were starting a design with a blank sheet of paper, 4 valves would be the preference.

5 valves seemed to offer no advantage when Yamaha tried it.

With bucket-type cam followers, pneumatic valves would be another interesting option to think about.
 
Back when I had the shop, and the Honda 650 Bros was a fashionable thing...I offered hopup kits for them.
Cams and headwork plus a tailpipe and muffler.
The valve sizing was pretty right - but that made the exhaust valve quite big and heavy.
That valve became the limiting factor.
Put me right off three valve heads, those things did...
 
At OCT, we've used 5.5mm valve stems (42mm valve head) with good results on the triples.  No issues, as the actuation is in the plane of the valve axis, unlike rocker-actuated valves as on Aermacchis and the like.  I've also fitted valves with waisted 7/6mm stems, this does however compromise effective guide length somewhat.  The waisted part recedes into the guide when the valve is closed.

Cam, power results from gas volume being pumped through the head, the more valve cross-section, the better.  Valve weight only limits the rev ceiling, entirely different aspect.

Reckon a 3-valver will prove to be a quite good compromise.  2 exhaust valves will prove troublesome in this application, just no room to space the ports properly to achieve the required cooling, see the Laverda 500/600/650s.  A very trick exhaust header construction may help a bit to get the heat out, but I fear a highly-tuned engine won't last long in such a configuration.  Would make a nice touring motor though.  Been doing a lot of research along these lines recently. :D

piet
 
Triumph runs 4 valve heads on the Sprint 1050 triple which has a 79mm bore so not too different to the 1200 Laverda.  Runs out to 10,000 rpm without too much trouble. Never had a look under the bonnet to see how it all works but.
 
Davo said:
Triumph runs 4 valve heads on the Sprint 1050 triple which has a 79mm bore so not too different to the 1200 Laverda.  Runs out to 10,000 rpm without too much trouble. Never had a look under the bonnet to see how it all works but.
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You forgot to mention the liquid cooling... you're comparing apples with pears. :D

Just about all air-cooled 4-valve multis suffer the same symptoms, overheating and consequential warpage around the exhaust area of the head.  Singles have more space to angle the ports away from one another, also usually have twin headers, exactly for this reason.

piet
 
sfcpiet said:
You forgot to mention the liquid cooling... you're comparing apples with pears. :D

Just about all air-cooled 4-valve multis suffer the same symptoms, overheating and consequential warpage around the exhaust area of the head.  Singles have more space to angle the ports away from one another, also usually have twin headers, exactly for this reason.

piet
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I think they are both pomes.  :D
 
sfcpiet said:
Non, non, la pomme, la poire.

46 years since my last french class!  :D

piet
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Pffft. What would the French know? Legume = any vegetable, not peas and beans.

They are both still pomes.
 
sfcpiet said:
Singles have more space to angle the ports away from one another, also usually have twin headers, exactly for this reason.
Click to expand...

Yes. I was thinking of a 6-header air-cooled Laverda triple. But you make a good point. It could get a little warm with exhaust ports all over the place. Liquid cooling would help, but in that case a new set of liquid cooled barrels would be sensible too. Where do you stop? May as well go and buy a Benelli TNT engine.
 
Dellortoman said:
Yes. I was thinking of a 6-header air-cooled Laverda triple. But you make a good point. It could get a little warm with exhaust ports all over the place. Liquid cooling would help, but in that case a new set of liquid cooled barrels would be sensible too. Where do you stop? May as well go and buy a Benelli TNT engine.
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I do often wonder how far you can modify the engine, frame, suspension, wheels, brakes, seat, electrics etc and still call it a Laverda.

Mind you, I also greatly appreciate the work done by Red et al to manufacture replacement parts to modern specification.
 
Davo said:
I do often wonder how far you can modify the engine, frame, suspension, wheels, brakes, seat, electrics etc and still call it a Laverda.

Mind you, I also greatly appreciate the work done by Red et al to manufacture replacement parts to modern specification.
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yeah - I am also pulled in two directions here... I love to see what Red does and how far he has already improved these engines. I mean, we speak about almost doubling the power and increasing it at least 10 - 15% beyond what the factory was able to do. That is impressive, especially as he does not have the resources the factory had and is still not using real modern technologies like FI or different head setups etc. I still regard it as "classical tuning".

For the suspension: What has really been changed? shocks, fork internals, some beefing here and there. Is a 911 SC Porsche no Porsche anymore just because it has Koni suspension?
 
Laverdalothar said:
yeah - I am also pulled in two directions here... I love to see what Red does and how far he has already improved these engines. I mean, we speak about almost doubling the power and increasing it at least 10 - 15% beyond what the factory was able to do. That is impressive, especially as he does not have the resources the factory had and is still not using real modern technologies like FI or different head setups etc. I still regard it as "classical tuning".
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Yep. Red's work is pretty impressive. I don't imagine he'll ever recover his R&D costs by selling parts and services. The only conclusion I can draw is that he does it for love rather than money. There's no explaining some peoples' strange obsessions.  :D

For the suspension: What has really been changed? shocks, fork internals, some beefing here and there. Is a 911 SC Porsche no Porsche anymore just because it has Koni suspension?
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Well, with Red's bikes, everything has changed. He's thrown the whole lot out and started with a clean slate. That clean slate was filled with Scorch frames, modern suspension and brakes. I suppose one could take the view that he's departed from the original bikes and created something new. But does it matter? From what I saw at Eastern Creek earlier this year. Peiro and Giovanni Laverda seemed to be more than happy with that.

 
new off of the CNC machine, Laverda 500 billet oil sump plates with a magnetic sump plug
just happen to be building a couple of 500's for customers and figured these would be a good idea
taking orders now


500 oil strainer sump plates
 
Lovely Red.. pity I will have to spoil them with the scungy old filter set up.. ;) Not that anyone will see 'em.
Maybe Wolfgang has some new ones.. ::)
Really good idea to make simple the oil change procedure.. racing is a bitch when you have to take the whole set up off to do the de-brief..


8)
 
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