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piranha-bro2
Hero member
- Location
- Melbourne
Never ever ceases to stun me what that guy does. Nice twist with the renewables theme.
Andy
Hero member
- Location
- Auckland, roughly
I was talking to my brother in law about windmills, as we had a beer looking at a Manawatu wind farm. He was railing against them saying they were ruining the look of the natural environment…
All I could think of was the savings of fossil fuel, and the fact that those windmills are standing on clearfelled hills, which are planted with exotic grasses, which were sown to feed exotic animals…
I didn’t point out the irony though, because it was his round
All I could think of was the savings of fossil fuel, and the fact that those windmills are standing on clearfelled hills, which are planted with exotic grasses, which were sown to feed exotic animals…
I didn’t point out the irony though, because it was his round
helicopterjim
Hero member
- Location
- near Lone Butte, BC, Canada
There is a fuck of a lot of irony there ...... no matter which way you look at it.
I really hope they can figure out some safe an clean nuclear power ........ nothing else seems to be really worthwhile yet.
Jim
Shajota
Hero member
- Location
- Whitsundays Qld
Depending on circumstances those monolithic windmills might have limited efficiency and variable lifespan but they are a popular image for alternative power and also certainly a great boon to the steel making industry……………….
helicopterjim
Hero member
- Location
- near Lone Butte, BC, Canada
Definitely worthwhile for now ........ but I really hope that they go away eventually.
Jim
Jim
Tippie
Hero member
- Location
- Dr?bak, Norway
Aren´t those massive blades made of fibreglass. Norway is in the hot seat internationally because the high court just ordered the de-construction of a whole bunch of them because they disturb reindeer. There are massive protests against them here.Depending on circumstances those monolithic windmills might have limited efficiency and variable lifespan but they are a popular image for alternative power and also certainly a great boon to the steel making industry……………….
Laverda1000.de
Hero member
- Location
- Haßberge, Germany
Oh heiliger Sankt Florian, verschon mein Haus, zünds andere an.
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
Oh dear. I can't let such a fatuous comment go without exposing it as complete bollocks.
The typical carbon payback period for a large wind farm is between 6 and 12 months. It varies depending on size, location and a few other minor factors. The typical life span of a wind turbine is 20 to 30 years.
So in the worst case, the energy produced over the life span of a wind farm is around 20 times its embedded energy.
In the most optimal of conditions it can be as high as 60 times the embedded energy, and it's improving all the time as the technology improves.
78jotadave
Hero member
In 1986 I worked building a 'wind turbine energy resource'/farm. They were Danish built by Vestas turbines and it took about 8 months to put them in place on pristine desert wilderness land. Prior to installing the turbines on the mountainside of Whitewater Canyon, near Palm Springs, the desert landscape was raped and cleared of most vegetation and cacti and desert wildlife. Bulldozers and scrapers (diesel) worked 24/7 prepping the site for concrete trucks to access and pour the 260 concrete steel-reinforced foundations for the turbines. Each foundation measures 10meters by 10 meters by 6 meters deep, that's a lot of concrete. Ground rippers came in and ripped trenches for pipes to connect electrical cables to the towers and substation, a multi-million dollar project.
Now 35 years later the entire project site is abandoned and has been nonfunctional for nearly 5 years only the broken and now obsolete wind turbines remain on the BLM Burea of Land Management land (Federal Government). The company that owned and operated the turbines for so many years recovered their investment reaped profits and declared it no longer viable to operate, walked away, and left it for the government to clean up.
Does anyone know what you do with used 60-foot turbine blades (steel-reinforced fiberglass) that each weigh 7 tons, 3 on each turbine 200 feet in the air? You bury them!
Wind farms when they become obsolete are environmental disasters.
Now 35 years later the entire project site is abandoned and has been nonfunctional for nearly 5 years only the broken and now obsolete wind turbines remain on the BLM Burea of Land Management land (Federal Government). The company that owned and operated the turbines for so many years recovered their investment reaped profits and declared it no longer viable to operate, walked away, and left it for the government to clean up.
Does anyone know what you do with used 60-foot turbine blades (steel-reinforced fiberglass) that each weigh 7 tons, 3 on each turbine 200 feet in the air? You bury them!
Wind farms when they become obsolete are environmental disasters.
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
That's not an unfamiliar story Dave. Unfortunately there's not much you can do about bad planning and unsound business or environmental practices in the past, other than learn from it and do better next time.
The business case for renewable energy is better understood now than it was 35 years ago. Stuff like large scale wind and solar farms were pretty much emerging technologies back then, and cock-ups were part of the learning curve. Now that they're well established main stream technology, financial and technological disasters are rare. Anyway, it sounds like the windfarm Dave is talking about (above) was operational for 30 years before it was de-commissioned, so it probably wasn't a total flop.
The payback figures I mentioned above are based on whole life-cycle costs including end of life demolition and recycling or disposal. Although there is an argument that "disposal" has an on-going environmental cost that will outlast us all. Fair point.
Actually, the more recent type of turbine blades made from carbon fibre are more difficult to recycle than the old steel/fibreglass ones. At least the steel can be recycled. But pretty much all de-commissioned carbon fibre ends up in landfill. Apart from its high cost, the recycling issue is one of its most serious drawbacks as an engineering material and why a lot of car manufacturers don't use it, even in high-end sports cars. The future of carbon fibre recycling is looking a little brighter though. There are a few companies around the world making some inroads into CF recycling that's proving to be economically viable. They're actually recovering the fibres from the polymer bonding material, but it's still pretty much small scale in the scheme of things.
BTW, I'm not a complete dunce in this area. I've been retired for a few years now, but I spent about 10 years working as an engineer in renewable energy and energy management. I worked on Tasmania's first large scale wind farm project that was commissioned in 2002 and is still operating. Admittedly that was 20 years ago and technology has moved on since then. But mostly the tech has improved making renewables more viable now than they were back when I was working in the sector.
My take on the environmental issues we're facing now (especially climate change) is that most politicians don't really give a shit about the environment. They're only looking as far ahead as the next election. If climate change is a big enough political issue, then of course they'll take it up as a campaigning platform. Whether they actually do anything about it once they get elected is another matter.
The business case for renewable energy is better understood now than it was 35 years ago. Stuff like large scale wind and solar farms were pretty much emerging technologies back then, and cock-ups were part of the learning curve. Now that they're well established main stream technology, financial and technological disasters are rare. Anyway, it sounds like the windfarm Dave is talking about (above) was operational for 30 years before it was de-commissioned, so it probably wasn't a total flop.
The payback figures I mentioned above are based on whole life-cycle costs including end of life demolition and recycling or disposal. Although there is an argument that "disposal" has an on-going environmental cost that will outlast us all. Fair point.
Actually, the more recent type of turbine blades made from carbon fibre are more difficult to recycle than the old steel/fibreglass ones. At least the steel can be recycled. But pretty much all de-commissioned carbon fibre ends up in landfill. Apart from its high cost, the recycling issue is one of its most serious drawbacks as an engineering material and why a lot of car manufacturers don't use it, even in high-end sports cars. The future of carbon fibre recycling is looking a little brighter though. There are a few companies around the world making some inroads into CF recycling that's proving to be economically viable. They're actually recovering the fibres from the polymer bonding material, but it's still pretty much small scale in the scheme of things.
BTW, I'm not a complete dunce in this area. I've been retired for a few years now, but I spent about 10 years working as an engineer in renewable energy and energy management. I worked on Tasmania's first large scale wind farm project that was commissioned in 2002 and is still operating. Admittedly that was 20 years ago and technology has moved on since then. But mostly the tech has improved making renewables more viable now than they were back when I was working in the sector.
My take on the environmental issues we're facing now (especially climate change) is that most politicians don't really give a shit about the environment. They're only looking as far ahead as the next election. If climate change is a big enough political issue, then of course they'll take it up as a campaigning platform. Whether they actually do anything about it once they get elected is another matter.
78jotadave
Hero member
They come in all shapes and sizes, more than 5500 of them generating 300,000 MWh in 2020. San Gorgonio Pass near Palm Springs
Andy
Hero member
- Location
- Auckland, roughly
Cool! That’s a hell of a lot of electricity with no fuel and no exhaust
They come in all shapes and sizes, more than 5500 of them generating 300,000 MWh in 2020. San Gorgonio Pass near Palm Springs
Leaves more for our Lavs
Tippie
Hero member
- Location
- Dr?bak, Norway
Michael Moore`s documentary that was pulled down from youtube after protests from the "green" movement took up the issues that Dave mentions, even more directly just what money is behind the "green" revolution. Some of it was a bit dated info, but a lot is very relevant today. How green is my valley?
I'm not against renewable energies, but actually this is what happening:
Let me imagine a wind farm, all works well, then, due to the climate changes, the wind move 50miles far...
hooooo yesss here we are, lots of blades to ride on.
This thread is for video (cool video) so I link this:
Let me imagine a wind farm, all works well, then, due to the climate changes, the wind move 50miles far...
hooooo yesss here we are, lots of blades to ride on.
This thread is for video (cool video) so I link this:
That's true in the States.In 1986 I worked building a 'wind turbine energy resource'/farm. They were Danish built by Vestas turbines and it took about 8 months to put them in place on pristine desert wilderness land. Prior to installing the turbines on the mountainside of Whitewater Canyon, near Palm Springs, the desert landscape was raped and cleared of most vegetation and cacti and desert wildlife. Bulldozers and scrapers (diesel) worked 24/7 prepping the site for concrete trucks to access and pour the 260 concrete steel-reinforced foundations for the turbines. Each foundation measures 10meters by 10 meters by 6 meters deep, that's a lot of concrete. Ground rippers came in and ripped trenches for pipes to connect electrical cables to the towers and substation, a multi-million dollar project.
Now 35 years later the entire project site is abandoned and has been nonfunctional for nearly 5 years only the broken and now obsolete wind turbines remain on the BLM Burea of Land Management land (Federal Government). The company that owned and operated the turbines for so many years recovered their investment reaped profits and declared it no longer viable to operate, walked away, and left it for the government to clean up.
Does anyone know what you do with used 60-foot turbine blades (steel-reinforced fiberglass) that each weigh 7 tons, 3 on each turbine 200 feet in the air? You bury them!
Wind farms when they become obsolete are environmental disasters.
It is forbidden in Europe to bury wind turbine blades, they are recyclable are are recycled.
98% of wind turbines are recycled.
Paul