Advice about riding in Europe

[Laverdalothar]

To be fair Lothar, there are road signs all over the place, especially so in heavily-enforced Austria and Switzerland. Sure, if you're completely focused on hooning, all too easy to miss. But, what more can one say... own bloody fault, isn't it? Pretty sure you and your group weren't the only ones nicked that day. The cops have to listen to all manner of stupid excuses all day long, no wonder they get fed up and fall into scary tactics. I guess you learnt your lesson though.

All too easy to go around moaning "fuckin' cops..." It's not all just about generating revenue, the law enforcement bodies know very well where to position themselves to make the most of their driving behaviour "lessons", be it for revenue generating or "education", the taxpayer is fronting up for them to do it in the first place. The police forces are usually commissioned by local governing bodies to enforce traffic laws at focal points, they rarely do it of own accord (at least in civilised, democratic states where the police is but an executing body, not the legislating). Might be a good idea to risk a peek into the regional newspapers, probably dozens of items to be found covering fatal or near-fatal accidents in the area. If you would be living there, you'd want the authorities to do something about it too.

Speed traps are simply a thing we'll have to put up with until each and every one of us complies with local road laws, if we like it or not. We cannot expect the authorities to protect us from larceny, homocide, terrorist attacks etc while we spread carnage over the public highways. Just because we get our kicks from hooning to our delight doesn't mean we're exempt from the laws that the majority of us has consented to. Not every speeder turns out a murderer, but is definitely a potential one. I'm no exception!

The situation in Austria is rather special. As I understand it, Austrians are fed up with their roads being mis-used as a transit race track by vacationers (especially bikers) on their way to Italy and back home. To avoid highway tolls, A- and B-roads are overloaded and often jammed during the tourist season, causing all sorts of chaos in tiny and already cramped villages. Not only is the onslaught of traffic a problem, the accompanying noise becomes more than a little annoying. Again, I'm no exception!

piets' 2 cents worth

Didn't I recommend sticking to the speed limits? I think I did... I also said to avoid the noise-controlled areas.

Nevertheless, if you don't, you get pulled over and pay the price - that's all I said. And that's happening pretty often, no matter if you speeded by will or it was simply a misinterpretation of the signs/the situation. It's not for no reason they are standing on the most used routes aside of the highway to catch those that do want to avoid the highway toll (and highway toll makes more than 2 billion every year; unfortunately, I could not find out how much they "earn" with tickets on these parallel routes, must be a lot though, else they wouldn't do it...). On me, their strategy worked: I'll pay the toll and get through Austria as quickly as possible on the highways and enjoy the roads, food and people in Italy.

So - I recommend to avoid the noise-controlled areas and to stay within the speed limit by all means if you travel aside of the highways or be prepared to pay the price. That's what I said and that's what I mean. Enough said.

 

[Exmoor beast]

I remember being lost one Friday night heading for a hotel, squealing the tyres of one of those boxy Granada Ghia’s around that thing for several minutes trying to figure out what the f?$k to do!!!

Sounds like an episode of the Sweeney!

 

[Paul Marx]

Didn't I recommend sticking to the speed limits? I think I did... I also said to avoid the noise-controlled areas.

Nevertheless, if you don't, you get pulled over and pay the price - that's all I said. And that's happening pretty often, no matter if you speeded by will or it was simply a misinterpretation of the signs/the situation. It's not for no reason they are standing on the most used routes aside of the highway to catch those that do want to avoid the highway toll (and highway toll makes more than 2 billion every year; unfortunately, I could not find out how much they "earn" with tickets on these parallel routes, must be a lot though, else they wouldn't do it...). On me, their strategy worked: I'll pay the toll and get through Austria as quickly as possible on the highways and enjoy the roads, food and people in Italy.

So - I recommend to avoid the noise-controlled areas and to stay within the speed limit by all means if you travel aside of the highways or be prepared to pay the price. That's what I said and that's what I mean. Enough said.

Well, if the police want to catch people speeding, they won't do it in a restaurant which is why they're by the side of a highly frequented road.
Paul

 

[Perry]

Sounds like an episode of the Sweeney!

Come on George, get your arse in gear, it's that way !!

 

[Laverdalothar]

Well, if the police want to catch people speeding, they won't do it in a restaurant which is why they're by the side of a highly frequented road.
Paul

That's not the point, Paul. They also stand at roads where the traffic is naturally slow (old Brenner pass street f.e., it's so overcrowded that the average speed at weekends is below 5 km/h...). If they can't catch you speeding, they catch you for something else...f.e. bikes that (slowly) pass the cars in traffic jam, bikes that seem to be to loud or what ever reason they think is appropriate to pull you over. Yes, you can claim all this to be illegal - but haven't we all done it? it's all a question of measurement. My experiences there were that you get pulled over far more often than f.e. in Germany or - at that time - in Italy. Might be my personal experience (and that of friends of mine), who knows. I made up my mind and act accordingly. That's all I am saying.

 

[The Sock]

Having a paper licence, I discovered that, suddenly, I need an IDP.
What a performance it was, to get one that included motorcycles. Person behind the counter had never seen a paper licence before. They were happy to stamp everything else, including a truck up to 7.5 tonnes, but didn't want to stamp Motorcycle, despite the fact that I have held a full motorcycle licence since 1973.
Took some persuasion, but I got it done.
Never needed one before on any Laverda trip since 1977. Oh, how I benefit from brexit.

 

[sfcpiet]

Something you get away with at home may not go down well elsewhere, even if it is inconvenient for yourself.

Sorry Lothar, you seem to regard yourself as a victim, not the cause. When travelling in a foreign country, you should regard yourself as a guest and behave accordingly, no matter how much it hurts. Otherwise, go someplace else. I'm pretty sure local police officers aren't briefed in the morning with "OK guys, let's go out and harass as many tourists as we can". Just because "we" do something "all the time" doesn't make it right. Lane splitting isn't legal in Germany either, I've still got a ticket (somewhere) to prove it. I've also recieved my fair share of austrian tickets. If I knowingly break the rules I need to be ready to accept the consequences, simple as.

I don't particularly like riding in Austria either, but it's usually the shortest route to the south for me and sure beats going through Switzerland, which has become just too expensive imo. Gotta live with it..

They also stand at roads where the traffic is naturally slow (old Brenner pass street f.e., it's so overcrowded that the average speed at weekends is below 5 km/h...).

Isn't that enough reason for police to be present? Impatient travellers do all sorts of stupid shit! Also the reason the austrian authorities want them on the Autobahns. It's not like the police presence is free for the local governments, those people need to be paid too, probably lots of overtime as well. And all of that is tax-payer money! Most probably, the local governments have a zero-tolerance attitude for transit travellers, so it's more a thing of keeping the flow organised as well as possible and keeping casualties low to zero. Pretty reasonable in my view. You only see the couple of minutes the cops are in view, they see the same scenario all bloody day long, with all the stupid shit that comes with it. Just imagine there wasn't any police presence, the Brenner crawl would take far longer with all the ensuing chaos. You can bet your bottom dollar the cops on duty would rather be at home with their family, downing a cold one at the barbie.

We, the tourists, are the cause. The inhabitants of all the little villages that get disrupted as we pass through in droves and have nothing out of it are the victims.

I plan to be taking the old Brenner road on my way to Breganze, but if things get too cramped I'll detour onto the toll road. Otoh, I just might take the Ötz valley over the Timmelsjoch... decisions, decisions, just have to make up my mind by the time I reach Reutte.

For those not familiar with Austria, and Switzerland for that matter, the mountainous regions are not over-blessed with thoroughfares. Major trunk roads wind their way along the valleys with connecting roads few and far between. There simply are not many options when traversing Austria north-south. To get to Italy, the Alps need to be crossed, somewhere. A problem that even Hannibal had to deal with.

piet

 

[Vince]

Just like the general population, you get good cops and dickheads, it's the same with bike riders as well. It's a coin toss as to what you meet. Sometimes you can reduce any tension by being polite, sometimes it doesn't matter what you do. The way I play it is as low profile as possible, don't attract attention and avoid contact says the bloke running Jota pipes. There are 2 roads local to Sydney over our mole hills and for decades there are 1 lane choke points that on a busy Sunday will have me riding on places very illegal to get past traffic. Cops have targeted this also for decades. You win some you lose others.

 

[Exmoor beast]

Having a paper licence, I discovered that, suddenly, I need an IDP.
What a performance it was, to get one that included motorcycles. Person behind the counter had never seen a paper licence before. They were happy to stamp everything else, including a truck up to 7.5 tonnes, but didn't want to stamp Motorcycle, despite the fact that I have held a full motorcycle licence since 1973.
Took some persuasion, but I got it done.
Never needed one before on any Laverda trip since 1977. Oh, how I benefit from brexit.

You could have got a photo licence for free and not needed an IDP for riding in EU

 

[The Sock]

You could have got a photo licence for free and not needed an IDP for riding in EU

Possibly, but I like my paper licence. it's helped me out of quite a few scrapes over the years, especially in the US.

 

[Laverdalothar]

When travelling in a foreign country, you should regard yourself as a guest and behave accordingly, no matter how much it hurts. Otherwise, go someplace else.

Isn't that exactly what I said? I said "By all means, stay within the speed limits".

Lane splitting isn't legal in Germany either, I've still got a ticket (somewhere) to prove it. I've also recieved my fair share of austrian tickets.

EXACTLY what I said: we all did it from time to time. In Italy, we got a waving hand from a police man (that stoped cars for traffic control). In Austria you get fined. That's a fact and that is all I wanted to point out: be careful, the rules are controlled there more strictly.

If I knowingly break the rules I need to be ready to accept the consequences, simple as.

If you re-read my according message, I specially pointed out that we were NOT AWARE to break the rules. All looked like the village had ended and 100km/h would be what we would be allowed to go for. Police obviously knew EXACTLY that this is irritating and right there, they were catching us. Nevertheless, it does not matter if you WILLINGLY or ACCIDENTALLY break the rules, you get fined both ways. In our case though, I can assure you we knew that Austria is controlling more and we definitely went very slow through all towns and respected the speed limits. Just at that point where we did not (accidentally), they caught us. Bad luck. Or a trap. You can look at it both ways. I told that story just to proof my point of please stick to the speed limits and rules.

I don't particularly like riding in Austria either, but it's usually the shortest route to the south for me and sure beats going through Switzerland, which has become just too expensive imo. Gotta live with it..

Excactly what I said, no? I said Switzerland because coming from England, traveling through France, there is a bigger chance to go through Switzerland than to go through Austria, as that would be the shorter route, no? Also it depends WHERE you want to go in Italy. If you go to the west coast, it might also be shorter to go via Switzerland. Not everyone necessarily wants to go to Breganze right away...

Isn't that enough reason for police to be present? Impatient travellers do all sorts of stupid shit! Also the reason the austrian authorities want them on the Autobahns.

If you are in heavy rain, up the old Brenner road, loaded with luggage and a tank-bag, and you don't have a girls-alike clutch - wouldn't you also try to pass the cars carefully where possible to not end up with an overheated/slipping clutch or a left lower arm that cramps? Or in 40°, when your oil-temperature goes up to 130°? It would really wonder me if you wouldn't, as you in particular know the consequences for the bike (and yourself, when you get stranded with a broken clutch or an overheated, oil throwing engine)... Or would you REALLY stay behind the cars for an hour or two in a stop-and-go uphill situation like that?

Otherwise, go someplace else. I'm pretty sure local police officers aren't briefed in the morning with "OK guys, let's go out and harass as many tourists as we can".

It's not like the police presence is free for the local governments, those people need to be paid too, probably lots of overtime as well. And all of that is tax-payer money! Most probably, the local governments have a zero-tolerance attitude for transit travellers, so it's more a thing of keeping the flow organised as well as possible and keeping casualties low to zero. Pretty reasonable in my view. You only see the couple of minutes the cops are in view, they see the same scenario all bloody day long, with all the stupid shit that comes with it.

They are not advised to produce money but without money, they can't be paid. Doesn't that imply a conflict by itself? Not saying it's the reason, just saying there might (!!!!!!) be a conflict in itself.

Also, be sure: even though there is most likely (or hopefully...) no such thing as a tally sheet for the number of tickets they write, be sure that diligent police men get promoted to a higher rank (and higher salary) quicker than those that are less diligent... How do you measure the diligence of a police man...? But that is not my point really.

Or what about standing at the road for hours and getting bored. What do you do when you get bored? Guess yourself...

Piet, I know you have a special view on that because your house is in a corner where people are seriously speeding.

And I don't say it is OK to speed or to overtake or to what ever do to break the law. I hope I could make that finally clear now, as I really don't want to repeat myself over and over again. All I wanted to do is to raise a warning to stay in the limits, especially in these two countries as there seem to be a zero tolerance policy. I deal with it by avoiding these two countries if anyhow possible and do what obviously you also agree they want us to do: travel through their country on the highway, pay tolls and leave them alone. That's all I said and that's what I recommend - (or live with the consequences, fully agreed).

Not sure why I am the bad guy here when all I wanted to do is give a warning to stay within the speed limits, please?? Also, this is roughly 25 years ago. Today I might have a different riding habit, more experience etc. and might drive differently than 25 years ago. Pretty sure you drove differently 20-30 years ago, too, right?

 

[Paul Marx]

Isn't that exactly what I said? I said "By all means, stay within the speed limits".



EXACTLY what I said: we all did it from time to time. In Italy, we got a waving hand from a police man (that stoped cars for traffic control). In Austria you get fined. That's a fact and that is all I wanted to point out: be careful, the rules are controlled there more strictly.



If you re-read my according message, I specially pointed out that we were NOT AWARE to break the rules. All looked like the village had ended and 100km/h would be what we would be allowed to go for. Police obviously knew EXACTLY that this is irritating and right there, they were catching us. Nevertheless, it does not matter if you WILLINGLY or ACCIDENTALLY break the rules, you get fined both ways. In our case though, I can assure you we knew that Austria is controlling more and we definitely went very slow through all towns and respected the speed limits. Just at that point where we did not (accidentally), they caught us. Bad luck. Or a trap. You can look at it both ways. I told that story just to proof my point of please stick to the speed limits and rules.



Excactly what I said, no? I said Switzerland because coming from England, traveling through France, there is a bigger chance to go through Switzerland than to go through Austria, as that would be the shorter route, no? Also it depends WHERE you want to go in Italy. If you go to the west coast, it might also be shorter to go via Switzerland. Not everyone necessarily wants to go to Breganze right away...



If you are in heavy rain, up the old Brenner road, loaded with luggage and a tank-bag, and you don't have a girls-alike clutch - wouldn't you also try to pass the cars carefully where possible to not end up with an overheated/slipping clutch or a left lower arm that cramps? Or in 40°, when your oil-temperature goes up to 130°? It would really wonder me if you wouldn't, as you in particular know the consequences for the bike (and yourself, when you get stranded with a broken clutch or an overheated, oil throwing engine)... Or would you REALLY stay behind the cars for an hour or two in a stop-and-go uphill situation like that?





They are not advised to produce money but without money, they can't be paid. Doesn't that imply a conflict by itself? Not saying it's the reason, just saying there might (!!!!!!) be a conflict in itself.

Also, be sure: even though there is most likely (or hopefully...) no such thing as a tally sheet for the number of tickets they write, be sure that diligent police men get promoted to a higher rank (and higher salary) quicker than those that are less diligent... How do you measure the diligence of a police man...? But that is not my point really.

Or what about standing at the road for hours and getting bored. What do you do when you get bored? Guess yourself...

Piet, I know you have a special view on that because your house is in a corner where people are seriously speeding and you see the results in your front yard, probably several times a year, which makes you also a victim of the ones that do speeding (not to talk about cats etc. that have been killed; we lost 3 out of 4 cats also by cars, only one car drove more than 30km/h though, one was killed by a car that started from parking, running over the cat... It's just what happens with cats close to roads unfortunately). Again, not saying that speeding is any good, please!!!

I agree, that is a bad situation and I understand why you have lots of sympathies for the Police and for people that need protection from stupid riders that do speeding all day in front of their doors. Same for noise regulations etc - I get all that.

And I don't say it is OK to speed or to overtake or to what ever do to break the law. I hope I could make that finally clear now, as I really don't want to repeat myself over and over again. All I wanted to do is to raise a warning to stay in the limits, especially in these two countries as there seem to be a zero tolerance policy. I deal with it by avoiding these two countries if anyhow possible and do what obviously you also agree they want us to do: travel through their country on the highway, pay tolls and leave them alone. That's all I said and that's what I recommend - (or live with the consequences, fully agreed).

Not sure why I am the bad guy here when all I wanted to do is give a warning to stay within the speed limits, please?? Also, this is roughly 25 years ago. Today I might have a different riding habit, more experience etc. and might drive differently than 25 years ago. Pretty sure you drove differently 20-30 years ago, too, right?

If foreigners just stayed at home, there wouldn't be a problem.
Paul

 

[Laverdalothar]

„All has been said, just obviously not from everyone.“

 

[Exmoor beast]

If foreigners just stayed at home, there wouldn't be a problem.
Paul

Surely if they stayed at home the wouldn’t be foreigners in the first place? No, the real problem is driving on the right which invariably leads to some bloody foreigner driving straight at you - I’ve seen it with my own eyes!

 

[henrywillms]

For fuck's sake boys are you trying to dissuade me from a Europe trip? I had great trips in the UK, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and those one or two countries the size of a postage stamp hidden in the mountains somewhere bscknin 1985 and 86. My wife and I rode our SFC 1000 and enjoyed the fabulous roads, great scenery, quaint towns and villages. And of course the people were a delight...mostly. I recall riding at fun speeds (exceeded the capability of the Smiths speedo and broke it) so I assume I was probably speeding. Had no police encounters.

I'm sure in many places enforcement is now more strict but you European's have great motorcycle roads. I hope do a return trip in the next few years. In the meantime enjoy what you have...even if it means a ticket once in awhile.

 

[pf1]

„All has been said, just obviously not from everyone.“

Calm down Lothar, I have been on the receiving end too, last time was in Portugal and cost me €160. I saw a speed limit sign that said 80kph so that's what I did, turned out I was in a 50kph limit and had no idea. They know what they are doing and it's a bit dishonest really.
To be fair though, it's been a rare occurrence.

 

[sfcpiet]

Lothar,

Your remarks suggest you feel victimised by the actions of austrian police in particular. Their actions may be disturbing for you, but I'm pretty certain these are sanctioned by higher bodies to attain certain goals, such as encouraging more tourists to use the toll roads instead of clogging trunk roads and disrupting everyday life for hundreds of thousands of inhabitants. But their primary aim will still be to ensure the safety and well-being of all road users.

It's not like we are being persecuted. But, as long as a major part of the motorcycling community chooses to deliberately disobey rules and regulations, we can be certain that law-enforcment groups will be focussed on all of us. That is a very sad fact. Of course, I'm equally guilty of lane-splitting, speeding, excessive noise etc as anybody else, I'm certainly no Gutmensch. But I will not resort to complaining, no matter how perfidious the trap is I stumble into, I'll just continue to do my best to avoid them.

@henry,

Come over, by all means! You can still have endless fun here. It's just that the days of unbounded hooning on public roads are steadily coming to a close.

piet

 

[motoddrob]

It's not just Europe, Oz has some very strict speeding rules too. You don't know you've been busted for speeding till a couple of weeks later a fine turns up in the letterbox. Last couple of fines I've had there wasn't even a flash that let you know you've just been busted.
I haven't had a face to face encounter with a cop, must be over 30 years, but still had a shit load of tickets. Cameras are mobile and work front and back. I now get my speed thrills on a race track and ride my GSBM via dirt roads to get to most places, but I'm lucky to live in a big forest with 100s kms of forestry tracks that'll take me in any direction I need to go.
I have no desire to return to Europe for the simple reason there are too many people. I could say the same for Sydney.

 

[piranha-bro2]

It's just that the days of unbounded hooning on public roads are steadily coming to a close.

piet

And that's the rub. Beautiful country backroads here in Australia are having 80kph limits put on them. It's a reaction to a high death toll among young drivers in country areas, but the simple fact is, no mater what limits they put on these roads, the reckless are going to ignore them and the young are going to continue to die.

This is an endless and probably pointless discussion but I am an absolute cynic when it comes to the constant use of public roads as an undeniable revenue stream. 'They' can argue till they're black and blue about safety, but setting up speed cameras in places where road fatalities and accidents are virtually non-existent will never convince me they don't have 'revenue' firmly in mind or that they have the best interests of the community at heart.

You'll get a fine in the mail for 64 in a 60 zone on some open and innocuous stretch of road, or a cop will set up his little 'trap' where risk is low or non-existent. while the community have to endure people on electric scooters doing 50-60kph on narrow shared paths, not even contemplating slowing down when they overtake or pass pedestrians, often with kids. Where's the safety concern with that increasingly common scenario? The roads are a a much easier target.

I just hope i can enjoy a little freedom to enjoy my bike (or car) while I still can - and that's not being determined by my age or physical ability, but the ever-tightening control of the roads - I am in fear whenever I give the beast a little free rein or enjoy a brisk pace in the car. Who wants to guess how far away total AI tracking of all road users is - every trip, every metre? Will there be no accidents? Ha! What a joke. The 'reduce speed' media campaigns here have actually seen an increase in road fatalities. Go figure.

Rob just reinforced my argument.

 

[sfcpiet]

It's not just Europe, Oz has some very strict speeding rules too. You don't know you've been busted for speeding till a couple of weeks later a fine turns up in the letterbox. Last couple of fines I've had there wasn't even a flash that let you know you've just been busted.
I haven't had a face to face encounter with a cop, must be over 30 years, but still had a shit load of tickets. Cameras are mobile and work front and back. I now get my speed thrills on a race track and ride my GSBM via dirt roads to get to most places, but I'm lucky to live in a big forest with 100s kms of forestry tracks that'll take me in any direction I need to go.
I have no desire to return to Europe for the simple reason there are too many people. I could say the same for Sydney.

Not without reason I would imagine. I recall the Easter weekend headlines of my youth proclaiming 15-20 road fatalities in Victoria alone! At a time when the total Oz population was around 13 million. Lots of space for each individual, but entire families still managed to wipe each other out in their rolling deathtraps.

Quentin,
European cities are beginning to clamp down on those silly electric scooters. A couple of german cities have banned them altogether! Casualties have steadily risen, rivers and ponds are full of the things because that's the idea of fun for some stupid morons.

At least here, police require authorisation by the communities to set up speed traps.

Without a very definite change of attitude amongst road users, nothing much will change.

piet