1200 cutting out any suggestions please

Kind of relevant to the subject of dodgy ignition ... I had to sort an ignition issue myself on Thursday. Not my bike though. It's an old Honda 180° twin PCRA classic race bike.

Bit of a long story. The bloke who owned the Honda was sharing a track garage with my mate and his Guzzi. He said he wanted a better ignition than the points system he was running on the Honda, and my mate started extolling the virtues of the Ignitech system he had on his Guzzi. I happened to wander into the pit garage at the time, and got introduced to the Honda guy as the local "expert" on Ignitech because it was me who installed the unit on the Guzzi. I hasten to add that I'm by no means an expert. I've just fitted a few on various types of bikes for mates.

The bloke was not too clued up on exactly what was available and where to get all the bits he needed. So I ended up ordering the Ignition system for him, including all the peripheral stuff (coils, pickup base plate, pickups, pulse rotor, etc.). Then I assembled the multi-pin plug with different coloured wires for all the inputs and outputs that he needed, labelled all the wires, powered the unit up and programmed it with the two advance curves that he wanted, and sent it all to him. I also gave him a USB stick with all the Ignitech software and other info, including the data file I'd made for his advance curves. That way he didn't have to download anything from the internet. I didn't want to do the actual installation for him because he lives 200km away, so I did my best to supply him with an idiot-proof plug-and-play kit. All at no profit to myself I might add. He just reimbursed what I'd paid for the parts. The guy was no fool with mechanical stuff because he knew how to build a pretty good race bike. I felt confident that he could do the installation by himself. What could possibly go wrong? He subsequently installed it without a problem and the bike fired up. All good. I thought that was the end of my involvement.

He decided to have a bit of a fiddle with the advance curves, as you do (that's the whole point of choosing an Ignitech system). But after he'd uploaded his modified file into the unit, the bike wouldn't start. He double checked all his connections - all OK. He also couldn't find any fault with the small changes he'd made to the advance curves. But it was as dead as a doornail. No spark at all. After a couple of weeks trying various fixes with no success, he came to the conclusion that the unit had shit itself. That's when he called me. I tried to help him out over the phone but we couldn't get to the bottom of the problem. He was convinced that the unit had died, despite me telling him that it was very unusual. I'd never heard of an Ignitech unit failing before, but I suppose there's gotta be a first time.

He asked if I had another unit that he could borrow to see if was indeed a fault with his ignition unit. So despite not wanting to drive the 400km round trip, I felt responsible because it was me who provided him with a dud ignition. So I took the Ignitech unit off my Ducati and re-programmed it for his bike. Drove all the way to from Hobart to Launceston, plugged it into his bike and it fired up straight away. Plugged his unit back in and it was dead - no spark. Hmm, a bit of a head-scratching moment. Maybe the unit was indeed fucked and would need to be sent back to Ignitech.

He was more convinced than ever that his unit was faulty. So I asked him to show me exactly what he'd changed in the program. It was just a minor change to the advance curve that shouldn't have stopped it from working. I was beginning to think he might be right, but to be sure, I decided to check every programmable field in every page of the program to make sure it wasn't a software issue. When I got to the "Bike" page, it had "Honda VTR 600 Shadow" as the bike type, which wasn't something I'd put in there. I'd originally set it to "Classic (1 lobe per revolution, 1-2 pickup)". It seems he'd inadvertently changed the type of bike in the drop-down menu. I changed it back to what it was supposed to be - hit the button and it fired up. It would have been embarrassing if we'd sent the unit back to Ignitech for a warranty claim.

It only took 10 minutes to diagnose the problem and fix it, but for me it also took 5 hours of driving and about $120 worth of diesel fuel for my car to get there and back. To be fair, he gave me a donation towards fuel costs. It didn't cover it fully but it was all he had in his wallet at the time.

He phoned me the next day to say everything works perfectly and the bike runs great. I told him he owes me a coffee next time I see him at the track.

The moral of this story, especially for Ignitech owners, is don't immediately jump to the conclusion that the unit is fucked if you can't get it to work.
 
That's why I defer to cleaver people than me, I just spent the last hour trying to email a pic of my licence to me. That took a bunch of googling, I love how your support to be born knowing what a button with a squiggly line supports to do on your phone. Who knew you need to do the email first and then attach the pic, my phone won't do it the other way. Bet there is a way but I sure cannot find it.
 
The Laverda Ignitech Gestalt, the many as one..... selling an ignition for global use requires support, Cam you had a local demand for that required support. From the start of iis production and the crucial support i had from the NSW Laverda Club, on board diagnostics became essential. Outwardly simple in operation, yet complex internally given the basic performance of a single micro processor. Simple Leds in the day, evolved to a 7 segment display and one yellow encoder alive, that yellow led evolved into using the 7 segment display "period" dot. There remain sections of the proc code did not invoke. Mercury tilt over function for one, horizontal bike and the ignition would stop. Cold crank starter motor rpm, another. Other functions not invoked that escape me today. The actual code was done in assembler, Intel 51/AM51 to produce object run time code. Took some doing, the native source code was about 90K in length. Conditional assembly as to what bike, MG/Ducati/Laverda, same source code was used for the very different CDI and Inductive discharge items, again conditional assembly.

The actual curve data values i did the first few times on a HP 41 RPN calculator, about 2 hours of crunching, per curve. The Reverse Polish Notation entry made the crunching less arduous. Happened to be teaching spreadsheet ( MS works in the day ) at TAFE and the obvious became obvious, spreadsheet and import into the source code ( previous HP calc output was hand coded in the source code ). Remains a considerable development load on me in the day, could not have done it without my life partner at the time.

What became quickly known, that ignition curve shape is directly related to the actual cylinder load mixture, you can get the same outcome by varying curve shape or Cylinder load. Not just a function of "ignition curve" in desired outcome, carby output is also a function. When you have the ideal curve, and then change the carby setup the curve may well not be ideal any longer. This cat and mouse can reach extremes very quickly. Hence the base line suggested setups in the days of past, "Standard Carby setup" and a few curves to match the carby setup. Red doing the early day work, as myself in the earlier days.

Not sure this helps for some, background can be useful in deciding the present or future. HTH j
 
Blimey John. Most of that was over my head. I know nothing of assembler, Intel 51/AM51 or source codes. The only thing I understood in your post was Reverse Polish Notation. I've had a string of HP calculators over the years and wouldn't go back to whatever conventional notation is called.

I reckon if I built a programmable ignition system from scratch, it would full of wheels, levers, relays, transformers, electric motors and maybe a few switches and light bulbs. It would probably be too bulky to fit on a motorcycle and need a 240V power supply to run it :)

Here's a picture of John in his workshop ...

John in his workshop.png
 
Its just you in the pic Cam, like your hand above the oil filled HV capies.... none but the brave....grin.

Bit of a ramble the previous post, left out details in relation the Ignitech likely software implementation, ie must be written under HLL ( High Level Language ), requiring fast processor and possibly any time critical code as imbedded assembler, all possible for the most part these days, not so much the old silicon. Had a HP 16C also, a true 64 bit calculator and logic device, capable of number base systems 2,8,10,16, bit of a laugh of the modern 64 bit operating architecture, HP had 64 bit arithmetic processing on the 16c, circa early 1980's. RPN being stack operational was very work like in how micro proc's are coded....

Is there an upper rpm limit specification for the Ignitech? Not rev limiter, actual processor/firmware limit in safe operation, just wondering, would not be a problem for Laverda application. Time critical coding is an issue for low cost hardware designs. j
 
iis_iis said:
Is there an upper rpm limit specification for the Ignitech? Not rev limiter, actual processor/firmware limit in safe operation
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I expect there is, but I dunno what that limit would be.

It would make sense that one of the design parameters for an ignition control unit would be that it must be capable of driving an ignition coil to its maximum performance limit. So my guess is that rev limits would most likely be determined by ignition coil, or perhaps VR pickup coil cycle time rather than the ignition control unit itself.

I'm almost tempted to build a test rig to play around with ignition systems, using a variable speed electric motor to drive various pickup systems (points, VR and Hall pickups) to see how they compare. It would be interesting to plot the differences in actual spark timing for each pickup system. I reckon someone must have already done that research, so I'd probably be reinventing the wheel.

The Honda I mentioned in an earlier post had the rev limit set to 14,000 RPM in the Ignitech software. That must be approaching the limit of coil performance (cycle time somewhere around a few milliseconds). I don't know whether he's run it right up to that limit yet, but he said it was revving cleanly up to 12,500. Ignition timing on that bike is taken off the crank by VR pickups, so it's firing each 3 Ohm coil every revolution (wasted spark).
 
Indeed Cam, had three sets of three electric motor crank simulator jigs, using 12V windscreen wiper motors, maxed out at about 4500 rpm at 32 volts, the limit of my bench PSU, and my nerves. Above that rpm limit i made a polyphase analouge encoder driver simulator, 8-10Krpm electric motors were not practical in an electronics workplace.... also nice dial back timing light which was accurate, 'mazing. Mounted on the jig were coils and a tacho readout from the iis tacho drive signal. Best of all was the cold war era, Genrad all valve strobe, readout to 25Krpm still have a few in the storeroom here, stop motion stability was excellent. Real boy toy that Genrad.....more ramble....j
 
iis_iis said:
8-10Krpm electric motors were not practical in an electronics workplace....
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Where's your sense of adventure? I've used a 4" angle grinder to test Hall-effect pulse rotors with magnets epoxied into radially drilled holes, just to make sure the magnets stay put at 11,000rpm. Warmed them up to about 80C with a heat gun to simulate engine heat. They can't get any hotter than that in service otherwise the magnets would die.

I'm always a bit wary of things flying apart at high revs. When I was an engineering student, the university's engineering workshop was given a used 6-cylinder Ford car engine by the local Ford dealer. It was donated for educational purposes. One of our practical projects was to design and build a water brake dynamometer to couple it up to. In the meantime the engine was just sitting around on the workshop floor. A few of us (including one of the engineering staff I might add) decided to test run it, so we sat it on wooden blocks, connected up a fuel supply and battery. Didn't bother with coolant because we only intended to run it for a few seconds. Being mindful to keep clear of the exposed flywheel. Contact was made with starter lead on battery. The bloody thing almost jumped off its wooden blocks with the sudden torque reaction as the starter motor engaged. Second try with someone steadying the top of the engine, it cranked over for a couple of seconds then fired up. The guy operating the carburettor gave it a couple of little blips, but just before shutting it down he went nuts and gave it wide open throttle. I reckon it got to about 5 or 6k rpm before the rear of the engine slid off its wooden block. The flywheel hit the concrete floor and the ring gear shattered into pieces like a grenade. It's lucky that nobody was standing in line with the flywheel because shards of ring gear shrapnel ended up imbedded in the walls and ceiling.
 
Dellortoman said:
Where's your sense of adventure? I've used a 4" angle grinder to test Hall-effect pulse rotors with magnets epoxied into radially drilled holes, just to make sure the magnets stay put at 11,000rpm. Warmed them up to about 80C with a heat gun to simulate engine heat. They can't get any hotter than that in service otherwise the magnets would die.

I'm always a bit wary of things flying apart at high revs. When I was an engineering student, the university's engineering workshop was given a used 6-cylinder Ford car engine by the local Ford dealer. It was donated for educational purposes. One of our practical projects was to design and build a water brake dynamometer to couple it up to. In the meantime the engine was just sitting around on the workshop floor. A few of us (including one of the engineering staff I might add) decided to test run it, so we sat it on wooden blocks, connected up a fuel supply and battery. Didn't bother with coolant because we only intended to run it for a few seconds. Being mindful to keep clear of the exposed flywheel. Contact was made with starter lead on battery. The bloody thing almost jumped off its wooden blocks with the sudden torque reaction as the starter motor engaged. Second try with someone steadying the top of the engine, it cranked over for a couple of seconds then fired up. The guy operating the carburettor gave it a couple of little blips, but just before shutting it down he went nuts and gave it wide open throttle. I reckon it got to about 5 or 6k rpm before the rear of the engine slid off its wooden block. The flywheel hit the concrete floor and the ring gear shattered into pieces like a grenade. It's lucky that nobody was standing in line with the flywheel because shards of ring gear shrapnel ended up imbedded in the walls and ceiling.
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Those were the days before you had to do a risk assessment prior to any practical exercise.

cheers,

bazzee
 
Man has to know his limitations, am a wimp at heart, i know danger when is see it, not that my vision is all that great at times, wry smile. Indeed the long past Lance Weil of Ricky Racer fame in the USA, suffered a fatal injury when large job came off the lathe chuck, as i recall. Had the chance in the day of speaking with Lance a few times, another of the Laverda notables of the period, odd and very engaging at the same time, why i like being a minority in a minority ( Laverda world ) you meet many an agreeable weirdo .. "no names... follow my eyes" j

** Oh just recalled testing hall effects here to 125 degrees C ( and the special grade epoxy ) on a functioning rpm jig, again 4500rpm the limit. SmCo magnets will function and endure at that ambient temp of 125, agreed Cam, on the very low temperature limit for Neodymium magnets, the Curie point can be permanent loss or significant degradation of magnetic field strength, let alone the plating delamination issues for Chinese items. SmCo are like glass when installing into an aluminium carrier however.
 
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Dellortoman said:
The guy operating the carburettor gave it a couple of little blips, but just before shutting it down he went nuts and gave it wide open throttle. I reckon it got to about 5 or 6k rpm before the rear of the engine slid off its wooden block. The flywheel hit the concrete floor and the ring gear shattered into pieces like a grenade. It's lucky that nobody was standing in line with the flywheel because shards of ring gear shrapnel ended up imbedded in the walls and ceiling.
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I did a similar thing with a Bialetti once.... Coffee was still everywhere in the kitchen when we moved out.
 
I don't know anything about SmCo magnets, although I think I have one holding the garbage/recycling collection calendar on my fridge door. I think it came from a some electro-mechanical relay device that was in a telephone exchange. I did a lot of work in telephone exchanges about half a lifetime ago.

I used Neodymium for the few Hall trigger rotors I made. They're way stronger than ferrous magnets and very handy if you want things to stick onto steel temporarily. Still got a bunch of the little feckers of various sizes stuck on the door of a steel cabinet in my workshop. I occasionally find odd uses for them.
 
Cam, best use of Neo magnets, dazzling the 3 year old kids with magnets/toy attached in the palm of your hand, hidden magnet under the palm.... kids are great fun....

Pretty much ditched Neo magnets when field failures came up, not too many yet the Samarium Cobalt was the magnet, sufficient flux density and reliable over a wide temperature range. Cost was 5 to 10 time more for the SmCo magnet over the Neo, 5 times the work in fitting into the rotor carrier. Have a magnetic flux meter to measure field strength and polarity, great tool when designing. j ( did my apprenticeship in telephone exchanges and factories building Crossbar, you would be from Stagger by Stagger era Cam?? Yes a smile here....)
 
iis_iis said:
Stagger by Stagger era Cam?? Yes a smile here....)
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Not familiar with that term. Was that the banks of rotary relay mechanisms that would click and clatter when someone was dialling a number?

I've seen loads of those rotary relays and walked through plenty of rooms with them all clicking away like mad, but I didn't work on the actual exchange equipment. My job was to design the air conditioning in the buildings that housed all that noisy relay stuff. The only thing I needed to know about exchange equipment was how much heat it produced. They needed constant temperature and humidity, and super clean (dust free) air for all the hundreds of thousands of mechanical contacts to work reliably.

I reckon I spent a decade designing aircon for all the telephone exchanges in Tasmania. Then I had to go back to square 1 and re-design them all when several floors of clattering electro-mechanical relays in each building were replaced by one floor of electronic exchange equipment. Then again after another few years when that one floor of electronic racks shrank to a box about the size of a filing cabinet sitting in the corner of a room. The multi-storey buildings that were once chock-a-block full of clattering relays were converted to offices or apartments.
 
Dellortoman said:
Not familiar with that term. Was that the banks of rotary relay mechanisms that would click and clatter when someone was dialling a number?

I've seen loads of those rotary relays and walked through plenty of rooms with them all clicking away like mad, but I didn't work on the actual exchange equipment. My job was to design the air conditioning in the buildings that housed all that noisy relay stuff. The only thing I needed to know about exchange equipment was how much heat it produced. They needed constant temperature and humidity, and super clean (dust free) air for all the hundreds of thousands of mechanical contacts to work reliably.

I reckon I spent a decade designing aircon for all the telephone exchanges in Tasmania. Then I had to go back to square 1 and re-design them all when several floors of clattering electro-mechanical relays in each building were replaced by one floor of electronic exchange equipment. Then again after another few years when that one floor of electronic racks shrank to a box about the size of a filing cabinet sitting in the corner of a room. The multi-storey buildings that were once chock-a-block full of clattering relays were converted to offices or apartments.
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The official term for the earlier exchange equipment was step by step (SxS). In that type of exchange the noise level was proportional to the amount of (telephone) traffic passing through.

I thought the air con was for the staff, not the equipment!

cheers,

bazzee
 
Bazzee on the money or bimotional switch in motion, grin. The huge uniselector banks with three phase motor drive ( memory fading ) and dog engagement were something else, to see. Haymarket and Pitt street were the commercial hub of mechanical exchanges. Leave it there, apologies to the many for my off topics, old person at a keyboard has many pitfalls....maybe...j.
 
iis_iis said:
Bazzee on the money or bimotional switch in motion, grin. The huge uniselector banks with three phase motor drive ( memory fading ) and dog engagement were something else, to see. Haymarket and Pitt street were the commercial hub of mechanical exchanges. Leave it there, apologies to the many for my off topics, old person at a keyboard has many pitfalls....maybe...j.
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Only step exchange I saw was Dalley St, near Circular Quay. Would have been 1983 or 1984. By that time older exchanges (SxS and crossbar) were being upgraded to fully digital operation (Ericsson AXE).
I was in town (er...Sydney) about a month ago, wandered along George St past Dalley St, unrecognisable. The exchange no doubt long gone, very valuable real estate there...

BTW John I'm sure the uniselectors ran off the -48V dc that the rest of the exchange used. The 2200Ah battery cells were huge! I think the only AC was generated for ring tone and dial tone by motor-generator sets.

cheers,

bazzee
 
what about this poor blokes bike cutting out then.?

I have a suggestion, is it BTZ, I hope so, but doesn't apply if it's CDI
under the seat, inside the right rear chassis rail you will find two cables exiting the main loom, I cant recall the colour and it doesn't matter,it's easy to find, they terminate on a small welded on lug in a SINGLE ring terminal, this can break, its the earth from the two ignition boxes, but very often the bike will still run intermittently, since the two wires cross a very sharp edge of the electrics tray, and they are a bit tight, this cuts the insulation and (sort of) gives an alternate earth. The cure is to extend (solder and heat shrink sleeve) both wires, and fix TWO ring terminals one for each and bolt to earth, the likley hood of both fracturing simultaneaously is remote, with the two into one ring its a deffo, it breaks you lose your eartgh (the ring terminal that is)

clem
 
Clem - it is HKZ / CDI, not BTZ. If you read back through the thread you'll see that heat related failure was suggested as most likely cause. Steve S is getting a replacement Redax / Ignitech system, fitted by Keith Nairn.
 
Job lot, litany of electrical known suspects;
Using the steel frame as an infinite current sink, bizarre. Of my 3 triples none has a frame electrical connection, direct.
The clueless use of the steering head bearings as a return path for the front indicator/blinkers
The too much is never enough grouped terminals adjacent to the battery on RGS, frame connection...again.
The almost impossible to access battery negative "earth" under the RGS battery support, supporting full starter motor current via engine casing. That suffered from leaked battery acid over the decades.
Over current heating of various barrel terminations.
Any BTZ still installed is beyond my comprehension....

There are other known electrical suspects and remedies, j.
 
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