18 volts! DPO Strikes Again.

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Harry Lime

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Crawling around the triple project the other day....couldn't find trace of a regulator. Found a rectifier. What the heck!

This bike is of dubious history (nothing illegal...just very none standard and hacked about). So powered it up and....18V across the terminals at 4000 RPM....and rising.

Sigh.

So fit a regulator.

Pretty much anything should work, but dubious about parts off fleabay.

Electrex list one @ around ?70, anyone used them?

Paul Goff lists one at half that price - anyone used that?

Not in a hurry, but experiences welcome.

H.
 
H - what bike is this?  If a pre'79 model year triple fitted with CDI (HKZ) ignition, it will only have a rectifier as standard.  How did you measure the volts?  I assume with a battery connected.  The original design simple dumped all the (puny) alternator output into the 32AH battery.  Once (or rather, if) it became fully charged, the excess simply gassed the electrolyte away when running at higher speeds.  If you search on regulator rectifier you'll find plenty of info - just about any Jap bike unit will work.  You'll see that John Wilson (IIS) has tested different units in the past and rated Shindengen highly

 
Right you are Rob,  what is not widely known is that there was a crude (  if not a little quaint ),  "Regulator" on the HKZ stator plate.  There is a small 4 terminal coil that acts as a opposing voltage generator in series with the single charging coil.  As RPM rises the opposing voltage increases on this bucking coil and reduces the charge current,  old technique which bosch retained ie 1920 copper iron age in the 1970's....  just a bit of history like our bikes,  Regards john
 
Good question Cam,  ND do have versions of their shunt regulators ( magnetic flywheel ) with a "Charge" lamp drive.  Though i have never seen one,  and never at recyclers yards at all.  Designed my own RR 8 years or so ago,  that had a charge lamp drive.  It would cost $400 to produce in low quantities. Cancel that project.

  After a little extrapolation of the concept for a "charge" lamp,  designed a very small printed circuit board that monitored the 12V Buss of the Laverda,  works well and has been fitted to all the rides i have here, including a 2000 TLR.  Versatile led or lamp drive circuit for new and old pods ie spare lamp outputs on modern ones and dual duty for older ND style instruments.  Monitors high and low voltage and sounds the alarm so to speak,  if either occurs.  A bonus is that with head light(s) on,  it will light as the charge circuit sags on low RPM,  just like a real "GEN" lamp.

  Seemed the best solution to me,  that way you can use any RR of choice and still retain the "GEN" we so much admired and horrified alike from the old days.  PCB is 30m/m by 15m/m or so,  bit of heavy shrink wrap over it,  3 fly wires and fits inside the headlight house quickly, ie no need to fix it to any hard mount point.

  ** Think i have a few spare boards around,  may even run a few more off if demand is enough.  PM me if you want to try one....

  HTH    John
 
Hi John, I really miss my gen light on the motodd since fitting one of Reds Alt/Sache upgrade. So I'm interested in one if you got a spare or do another run.
Great to see you back in circulation.
Cheers
Rob
 
Wire one of these in Cam and hot glue the LED into the charge buld holder in the back of the clock.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12v-LED-Battery-Monitor-voltage-and-charge-indicator-/150479033981?pt=UK_AudioElectronicsVideo_Video_TelevisionSetTopBoxes&hash=item23093fd67d


    Keith
 
Looks ok the single led voltage monitor that Keith indicates ( pun intended ).

  There are some considerations that may or may not be of note worthy mention,

  Rider safety is paramount,  this is what i make as rule one in any system i design.  Wanted just a single indication of a voltage problem while riding.  Led/lamp On or Led/Lamp off meets that requirement.  I rejected a complicated indication regime.

  Next was the harsh temperature environment the monitor needs to operate accurately in.  Many is the voltage monitor circuit that will work at 20C and then accuracy falls away either side of that nominal temperature.  Noted is the omission of a working temperature range for the indicator led on ebay.  Perhaps the designer states the operating temperature range elsewhere or it can be supplied on request.  30mV stated accuracy is less than meaningful as to the on bike demands of a charge system indication, which is indicated by the chart voltage to battery state of charge,  big call i would think.  Not a lot of money even if it works less than a wide range device ought to, it may or may not.  Temperature compensated reference devices are around,  just not cheap.

  Of course i take the technical approach on product appraisal,  what i did for a living.....    no matter the number of users whom believe the published specifications.  Measurement is the final decider.

  HTH.  John 


***Hello Rob,  tar for the welcome.... send you a PM....
 
IIS said:
Right you are Rob,  what is not widely known is that there was a crude (  if not a little quaint ),  "Regulator" on the HKZ stator plate.  There is a small 4 terminal coil that acts as a opposing voltage generator in series with the single charging coil.  As RPM rises the opposing voltage increases on this bucking coil and reduces the charge current,  old technique which bosch retained ie 1920 copper iron age in the 1970's....  just a bit of history like our bikes,  Regards john

Hmm. OK. Bike is supposedly a '76 triple, but much hacked about.

I didn't measure the current going through at the higher voltages.

John, are you saying that even though I see 18V+ at the battery terminals, there's almost zero charge current, hence it's "sort of" safe for the battery?

Do I need to have a rummage around the stator plate for this coil, or does the voltage I measured imply that it's either missing or defective?

I'd prefer to use a modern gel battery and electronic ignition at some stage, or at least move towards that.

Any advice is much appreciated!

Like you say, a pretty crummy system for the mid-70s, when there were plenty of reliable Japanese and German solutions around to copy.

Where *did* I put that acetylene lighting kit that my old Zenith used?

H.
 
Harry Lime said:
Like you say, a pretty crummy system for the mid-70s, when there were plenty of reliable Japanese and German solutions around to copy.

Harry,

That IS a german solution... :D

At least it was state-of-the-art when it was introduced a few years prior.

piet
 
    Hello Lads,  The HKZ,  with exciter coil and alternator regulator in copper iron,  has a period uniqueness about it i actually like and admire.  Power semiconductors of the period were rare and required careful design into something like a motorcycle, reliability was difficult to achieve for many reasons.  Hence the HKZ/alternator solution was deemed a reliable solution, and save for the first installed inverted control box, it was reliable (*).

    Harry, there are many and all sorts of aspects that would give the readings you have,  from actual Laverda bike specific to how or what meter you are using. As with many aspects of life,  easy things first is a good approach,  perhaps you do that already. Lads have indicated items to follow through on and with.  Am the messenger in regard to how a HKZ regulates the charging current,  18V is not a wanted value at any time,  on a charge system.  Voltage current interaction is a complex subject, not for this forum to my mind. 

  Stefan, you are a dedicated man in retaining the Bosch system or parts of it,  have a special triple here that will retain the HKZ as fitted,  there are good reasons at times.  Shottcky diodes have a lower reverse voltage rating than usual power diodes,  no news to to you there.  There is the possibility of "load dumping" on the alternator coil when the motor stops,  up to minus 80Volts is possible applied to the diodes.  May take out the Shottcky diodes.  Those ND FET RR's,  i suspect that they use synchronous rectification on the stator input,  ie the actual rectification is done by fets turned on and off in phase with the incoming AC at the frequency of the motor derived rpm. Very efficient and power fets are robust these days.  Dig out an old email and post it here for those interested.  The ones i have installed work very well to date.


(*)  Whom remember the old theatre lights that sort of staggered their way to being dimmed?  That was done with copper and iron only,  the creaking/staggered  dimming was down to a section of iron mechanically activated,  closing a gap in a bigger iron circuit with copper winding, Saturable reactor,  needs must at times and the needs were many for Laverda at the time.

OLD email on FET RR.


Not sure about the honda fours ( what do you have by the way? ) and the RR fitted. What i do have is a working knowledge of batteries. You actualy need a higher voltage on AGM batteries than flooded acid cell type batteries. Hence why modern RR's run at about 14,2-14,4 Volts output. You can get lower output voltages in RR's for use with flooded cells.  Possibly the often misunderstood sense wire on RR's like the Shindengen SH530-12 is the reason for over volted charging systems, on Honda's,  however i am not certain, not being present to see what is happening.

    Doner RR's are many these days, i just picked up on ebay from the USA a Shindengen FH008EB, this is a FET type RR as opposed to the SCR type ( SH530 ) of the last 30 years on motorcycles. About AU$80 delivered here. If i were you i would get a modern RR, say from sports bikes of the last 2 years as the price difference is nothing compared to the power handling of the modern RR's such as the FET units. You can fit a high powered RR to a lower powered stator, no problem with voltage regulation. The FET type above came from a 1 or 2 year old Blade 1000.

HTH John.
 
That's a great response. Thanks to everyone who contributed. I've certainly learned something.
 
DPO struck in my garage this weekend, one of the fluorescent light fittings wouldn't strike up, so I climbed up to look at it and he had mounted it with only a half inch between the striker and the ceiling... Twit, I had to take the whole fitting down just to change the striker.

He has been known as Barry the Boddger ever since I was taking a partition wall down (with a jigsaw) and found that he had wired the light switch diagonally through the wall.......
 
you have not seen bodgy work at all

few years ago I commisioned a local company outside of Baku to build some portable accomodation units, twin bunks each end, shower and toilet in the middle
when unit was completed I went to inspect it and found they had a power outlet inside the shower stall
awesome design



 
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