3CL pistons marked Cann 75

paulincayman

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Cayman Islands
Hi folks
I finally got the head off today and  after a superficial decoke I was able to see the pistons clearly for the first time.
They are marked with diameter symbol and then CANN 75 .They appear to be flat tops with valve cutouts , the crown comes flush with the liner at tdc..
The bike has 4c cams and  open bell mouths and a straight through 3 into 1 exhaust, so I was wondering if these pistons are standard or hc? It's a 77 French bike if that makes a difference.
Still working on photos...
Cheers
 
Hi Paul sounds like you are right into your bike which is great!
Your engine has standard low compression pistons if the crowns are in fact flat the 75 represents the bore diameter 75mm which is a standard bore size for a 1000cc triple.
;) ;)
 
Standard pistons, I confirm.
There never was such a thing as a Jota in France, they weren't approved.
So a previous owner put the 4Cs in and didn't open the engine.

Paul
 
Hi Paul, your setup is similar to the one I found on my 3C engine. Naturally, the bodgers had just fitted the A11 cam wheels on the C4s, without giving a shit about cam timing. >:( Might be worth a closer look on yours as well.

Regards,
Stefan
 
Gravelroad said:
Hi Paul, your setup is similar to the one I found on my 3C engine. Naturally, the bodgers had just fitted the A11 cam wheels on the C4s, without giving a shit about cam timing. >:( Might be worth a closer look on yours as well.

I am all into positivity at this time.  Take that as good news, pistons are pretty easy to get, 4C cams not so.  A set of 4C's is probably worth about $1kAU, if you can find them.  Vernier drilling the original A11 camwheels is cheap cheap and will get you close enough.  New pistons were likely necessary anyway.  So stick in some decent pistons, time it up right and enjoy!
 
paulincayman said:
Hi folks
I finally got the head off today and  after a superficial decoke I was able to see the pistons clearly for the first time.
They are marked with diameter symbol and then CANN 75 .They appear to be flat tops with valve cutouts , the crown comes flush with the liner at tdc..
The bike has 4c cams and  open bell mouths and a straight through 3 into 1 exhaust, so I was wondering if these pistons are standard or hc? It's a 77 French bike if that makes a difference.
Still working on photos...
Cheers

"CANNA 75" is embossed - which translates into "barrel 75":
49752794741_7cdce7c2b0_c.jpg


Std. size as it left the factory (which was already stated above).
 
Thanks for all the good info..And it was nice to finally get into the engine..not quite the disaster I was expecting ..Still plenty more opportunities for that..
I'm trying to get some pics up to help identify the cam wheels...the factory marks are  about two teeth from the bolt..plus another punch mark on each approx 4 teeth from the bolt. There is also an additional  punch mark on the casing which is approx on the centerline of the barrels. I wonder if they are relevant to the cam timing.?
  I know that's all  a bit vague,I do have a degree wheel plus dial gauge but have not got it together yet.
  More to come.
Paul
 
Factory drawings of 4C and A11 camshaft sprockets below. Quality of reproduction is crap but there's enough detail for you to work out what sprockets you have.
 

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  • Laverda camshaft sprocket A11 and A12.jpg
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Yeah, it's dead easy to tell by looking at them once you've seen the drawings. Bolt holes in 4C align with sprocket teeth. On A11 sprockets they don't.

I found the same issue on my Jota. 4C cams with A11 sprockets. The camshaft swap was done by an official Laverda agent, Stanco, in Melbourne in 1980. You'd have thought they would know better  ::)

The previous owner had been riding the bike around for over 20 years like that. Evidently he had no idea that it was way out of tune.

Anyway, I was able to dial the cams to the correct timing by flipping one of the sprockets over (don't remember which one) and slotting out the holes in the camshaft lugs a wee bit with a round file. It made a big difference to performance and fuel economy.
 
Mate that's huge info ..was sat here wondering where in the world(literally) to send them or to fit the spare a11s...so a diy fix would be perfect .
Going to pluck up the courage to lift the barrels  off tomorrow. 



 
paulincayman said:
Mate that's huge info ..was sat here wondering where in the world(literally) to send them or to fit the spare a11s...so a diy fix would be perfect .
Going to pluck up the courage to lift the barrels  off tomorrow.

A lot less chance of really ugly finds inside those barrels c/w with the endless possibilities triple heads can offer, Paul! Fingers crossed.
 
paulincayman said:
Mate that's huge info ..was sat here wondering where in the world(literally) to send them or to fit the spare a11s...so a diy fix would be perfect .
Going to pluck up the courage to lift the barrels  off tomorrow.

Can certainly be done as a DIY project. The way I did mine was a kind of iterative process of flipping and changing sprockets, moving the chain on the teeth and re-checking the timing. When I got within a few degrees, the fine tuning was done by filing the bolt holes. It was a tedious job assembling the top end, measuring and disassembling each time. I reckon I had the cams in and out about 20 times! It also required the use of a degree wheel and a dial gauge to measure valve lift.

If I was to do it again, I'd adopt a different approach - drilling and taping new bolt holes. That's an easier process because you don't have to assemble the thing for check measurements all the time. It's arguably a better engineering solution to the way I did mine anyway because you don't have slotted holes that could slip out of position.

Position the new holes in line with the sprocket teeth as shown on the 4C sprocket drawings (doesn't matter which teeth you choose). Reassemble the cams and install them in the correct position. Job done. No need to dial in with a degree wheel (unless you're a bit obsessive).

To get the right position, mark the pitch circle diameter using the existing hole centres as a guide, then scribe a line across the sprocket from tooth to tooth tip through the centre of the sprocket (cam sprockets always have an even number of teeth). Where the line intersects the circle gives you the new hole positions. Centre punch, drill and tap to M6. If you're not confident to do it accurately enough yourself, take them to an engineering shop. They can set the sprockets up in a milling machine and get the holes spot on.

Obviously the original timing marks will no longer be valid, so you'll want to make some new ones. They're necessary to get the cam chain back in the right spot when you reassemble, and after every time you do the shims. I didn't put new timing marks on my sprockets, so I have to do it with a marker pen each time before disassembly whenever I do the shims. The reason I didn't out permanent timing marks was just laziness. Once I got the valve timing right, I thought, "Fuck it. I'm not taking it apart again just to engrave new marks".

The sprocket drawings tell you where the marks need to be. All you need is a protractor to transfer the angles onto the sprockets. Might be a good idea to grind or polish the old timing marks off and block off the old bolt holes to avoid confusion.

You could make new marks with a small grinder or Dremel using the edge of a cutting disk. But maybe a neater solution would be to use an engraving tool. You could also re-do the A and S with the engraver. I reckon the sprockets might be too hard for letter punches. You'd just bugger-up the punch.

Most of us don't have an engraving tool lying around, but you could do the marks and lettering with a fine tip permanent marker and take them to an engraver and get him to over-write them. Most key cutting shops do engraving.
 
I had to dial in my axtel grind cam to the A11 sprockets. IIRC 6? in and 3? ex. The was at the crank so half those numbers.
I got the 1.5? by slotting the cam  and for the inlet I moveved the sprocket 90? and redrilled and tapped. Used a dremal to remark the alignment. Then Red redrilled them with a vernier set of holes to play with.
 
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Axtell camshafts and Ross 77mm pistons. Measure and set your desired squish clearance with a very thin base gasket. Ported head, new valves/springs/etc with matching big bore downpipes and collector.  Setting the cam timing makes a big difference. Dialing in the ignition advance and jetting is critical too. All of the work is well worth the effort.

The 1970s 1st oversize Laverda HC CANNA pistons are on the shelf. Get some modern pistons and enjoy. I used Ross Pistons.

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