750 SF "Skulls"

Hi Rob,

Will always willing listen to others experiences on any subject, and especially on a subject like Laverdas where I know very little!
I think I will leave the welding until I "need" it!  Am sure I can get what I want by other less problematic and less time consuming means!
I can well believe the problems encountered with cam towers and bearing saddles etc, we have very similar problems with our Lagonda V12 cam carriers!  and these are "supposed" to have been made in superior alloys!

Best regards
Julian
 
julian said:
Not a simple job if I want it  to last a decent life span!  

Hi Julian,

Imho, the parts have already survived a decent life span, what we're attempting is to tickle a little extra out of it all.... :D

The Breganze twins are all at least 35 years old, most with an extremely arduous life behind them.  What's left is most often worn out, bent, broken, etc.  Safest method to bring an old clonker running at its' best(or better than ever thought possible) is to re-construct most of the stressed components, see also Norton Manx, Matchless G50 etc, etc.  These are being campaigned in classic competition at a level far higher than in their hey-day thanks to better materials and construction methods, churning out at least 15% more power than Messrs Williams, Craig, Moore et al ever dreamt of.

Having said that, the Lav twin cylinder head itself doesn't pose many problems in the way of reliability. Rocker geometry is often neglected, leading to premature valve and guide failure.  Porting and flow is the heads' Achilles heel and its' general lay-out drastically restricts further development.  

I've found that starting off with a GT/SF small-valve head lends itself better to more efficient porting.

You've lined up an extremely ambitious project, best of luck!!

piet
 
Thanks Piet,

Yes, I think you are right!
Trouble is that making a new head for a one off is not something I particularly want to do. Internals will be almost all newly made though!
My head is a small valve unit although it has 35.5mm exhausts already but still the 38mm inlets.
Are the bigger valve heads made from the same patterns but modified?  ie. Do they have the same exterior profile around the ports or is there more material?  are the ports larger to go with the larger carbs etc or is it only the valve throat and carb mounting flange area that were opened up?

Dead right with the ambition  :D
Makes it worth trying though  ;)  my main hobby is making things go fast, and my side hobby is boring and stroking things! (or de-stroking on occasion)  I love to get power without going the standard route! 
May not be easy but with a little perseverance  :D  :D  and you guys are extremely helpful and informative!

Thanks,
Julian
 
Julian,

The small-valve head is basically similar to the big-valve, its' main advantage though is having more metal to play with in the intake port, especially around the valve seat where the big-valve head is seriously lacking!  The floor of the intake tract can be modelled far better, the big-valve would need material added here to obtain a decent curve into the chamber.

The position of the intake opening is a bit higher, placing the manifold up a bit (about 4mm or half distance between cooling fins), giving a bit more scope for the entire intake tract.  Limiting factor is of course the valve spring seating, watch out for that!(see Phils' pic of the dissected port)

piet
 
Robjota said:
So am I, Piets enlightenened me and I've just read the title to this thread, operative word being 750
:-[  :-[  :D

Cheer up Rob,

Your findings on the triple heads unfortunately apply in no small degree to the twin heads, too! ::)  It's just that the twins are a little bit sturdier, but not better.

piet
 
Will make sure I do a flow reading at several valve lifts before and after and make a chart so we can all see the differences (read "see how well I F--k it up"  :D :D)
This could be embarrassing  :D
Will also do it with and without carbs and bell mouths!
In the past we have found Enormous gains with well designed bell mouths!!

Thanks for all your help and comments! keep them coming please!

Julian
 
Julian

Sounds like you're going to be an interesting guy to have on here. Lots of technical input from you with your experience and resources ... :D 

Rob
 
Hi Julian - That sectioned photo is of the small port head - I used it to guage how much extra angle i could get to close up angle between port and valve - ended up about 10 degrees. I used 44mm  inlet valves with an 870cc capacity - Regards - Phil
 
Hi Phil,
I was going to ask if that was a 750 head !
Do you still have it?  and any possibility of borrowing it when the time comes?  All costs on me of course!
Very helpful.  Thanks.

Rob,
Interesting to laugh at probably when I cock it up  ;)
But I'll try to do it in an interesting way  :D :D :D

Julian
 
and Juilan, dont forget that in big valve form, there is also the race bike, 750SFC Electronica,this has a totally different combustion shape design and flatter spark plug angles,They also have 18 instead of 17 fins (I quoted that number from memory, so I hope it is right) I dont think that you would find one of those available,not used or new There are even SFC's that should have them and dont, but not SF's that have but should'nt.
CLEM
 
As an engineering question..having worked on Ducati and Guzzis from the same time period, why did Laverda use "skulls" cast into the heads?  I can't think of any motorcycle engine that did that.

What was the issue they were addressing?
 
Rusty Spokes said:
As an engineering question..having worked on Ducati and Guzzis from the same time period, why did Laverda use "skulls" cast into the heads?  I can't think of any motorcycle engine that did that.

What was the issue they were addressing?

Perhaps they didn't want valve seats falling out! :D   Maybe more evenly matched combustion chambers.... who knows.

Think I've seen them in mid-60s little Honda twins too.  Perhaps part of Massimos' inspiration in the first place?

piet
 
sfcpiet said:
Rusty Spokes said:
As an engineering question..having worked on Ducati and Guzzis from the same time period, why did Laverda use "skulls" cast into the heads?  I can't think of any motorcycle engine that did that.

What was the issue they were addressing?

Perhaps they didn't want valve seats falling out! :D   Maybe more evenly matched combustion chambers.... who knows.

Think I've seen them in mid-60s little Honda twins too.  Perhaps part of Massimos' inspiration in the first place?

piet

Did a google and it seems Norton used them in some early singles too. You can tell I'm in Atlanta and the city is closed down due to ice and snow. In the shed pondering the engineering of my bike..cabin fever.

Seems odd, the technology of the time made valve seats very reliable since WWII...seems expensive to cast the heads with the skulls. 
 
Yes Honda CB77's etc had them as far as I remember and looking at the Laverda 750 engine you can see the resemblance.
 
Yup..your correct. Found this copy of a service bulletin for oil leaking past the skulls on the Honda.




Here is the info:

SL #65 6/1/66 HONDA MOTORCYCLE SERVICE BULLETINS
OIL SEEPAGE NEAR SPARK PLUGS IN ENGINES WITH ALUMINUM CYLINDER HEADS
American Honda receives occasional complaints of the tendency for certain models with
aluminum cylinder heads to seep a small quantity of oil near the spark plugs. In some cases,
dealers have replaced cylinder heads in an effort to eliminate this seepage. This bulletin is
intended to clarify our policy in relation to this problem, and to suggest some countermeasures
that we have found to be effective. In cases where it can be confirmed that the spark plug sealing
washers are not leaking, accumulation of a stain, or oil residue, near the spark plugs can be traced
to oil seepage from the joint between the combustion chamber "skull" and the aluminum cylinder
head casting. Since the spark plugs are threaded into the iron skull, rather than into the soft
aluminum casting, this joint must "come to the surface" near the spark plugs. Although it is no
mystery how oil reaches the outside of the engine, it is difficult to determine the source of the oil.
Apparently, oil reaches the joint from the oil-bearing chambers through internal porosity in the
aluminum casting; such porosity is extremely difficult to avoid. Once oil enters the joint, it has an
almost unimpeded leak path to the outside because the skull is not bonded to the head casting.
Our studies have shown that machines experiencing this problem can be graded into three broad
categories, based on the severity; each category should be dealt with in a different manner:
1. A stain or oily residue collects near the spark plugs over a period of several days or weeks.
Seepage of this magnitude should be considered a normal, inescapable consequence of the
cylinder head design, and no repair should be attempted. Customers complaining of such seepage
should be assured that no defect exists; suggest more frequent cleaning of the engine.
2. More severe seepage causes definite accumulation of liquid near the plugs; following a hard
run, oil droplets or streaks can be found on the air cleaner covers, etc. Although a "defect" is not
necessarily indicated by this seepage, countermeasures are often necessary to satisfy customers.
We have found that seepage can be slowed or stopped in the following manner: a) Remove spark
plugs and completely clean the region around the plug holes so that the joint between the skull
and the casting can be seen. b) Using a dull punch, punch a ring of depressions, tangent to each
other, in the aluminum immediately outside of the joint.
3. Liquid oil "bubbles" from the skull/head casting joint, puffs of vapor can be seen when the
engine is suddenly accelerated. In these cases, a definite defect is indicated, i.e., actual
separation of the skull and head casting. In most cases, however, the cylinder, rather than the
cylinder head , is the faulty part. We have found this problem to be most commonly related to
"sinkage" of the cylinder sleeve in the cylinder casting, such that the upper surface of the cylinder
sleeve is below the upper surface of the cylinder casting. When this "sinkage" occurs, the
Honda 250-305 Super Hawk Restoration & Maintenance Guide
combustion chamber skull is not forced into intimate contact with the cylinder head casting and
severe oil or vapor leakage, near the sparkplugs can occur. The recommended repair is, of
course, to locate and replace the faulty part.
Source: SL #68 4/29/66 HONDA MOTORCYCLE SERVICE BULLETINS


I don't think Laverda had the same issues.
 
Rusty Spokes said:
I don't think Laverda had the same issues.

Guess they do.....they definitely suffer from the "sleeve sinkage" problem too!!

Why didn't Massimo recieve this TSB??  Might have been able to avoid some niggles.

piet
 
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