750 SF3 issue any suggestions welcome

[Andy]

I would have thought the sound of a rev limiter would have been too obvious to “miss”

 

[Vince]

I think there are 2 kinds of Limiters, A hard Limiter where the engine just doesn't rev more and a soft limiter where it indicates, maybe it stutters. The latter is designed to not cause you to crash or skid if you hit it mid-corner. I have never actually ridden a bike and hit either type. I have the same experience with ABS, I guess locking wheels early on, before ABS has taught me to not lock brakes, or at least not on purpose. Brake sliding the rear happens a lot off-road, so does spinning the rear as well. Does anyone know what kind of Rev Limiter Ingitechs have? Come to think, it would be good to know what kind of Limitors all the other Ignitions also have and where they are set to and if they are adjustable.

 

[motoddrob]

On track I use the revs limiter to tell me to change gears!!!

 

[Spondon440]

In my mind its definitely ignition and agree if its doing it in neutral on the main stand.
Can't change it back, I embarrassingly broke the ball off the allen key in the rotor and can't get it out (could but i think i'll need a grinder and don't want to do that just now)
I'll get a cable and check whats in there, I actually made the wiring loom which is part of my worry but I'm pretty sure that right, I do want to run without the tank on though just to see if i can spot a shorting issue.
Failing all that I guess I'll have to get it up to Keiths

 

[Spondon440]

I think there are 2 kinds of Limiters, A hard Limiter where the engine just doesn't rev more and a soft limiter where it indicates, maybe it stutters. The latter is designed to not cause you to crash or skid if you hit it mid-corner. I have never actually ridden a bike and hit either type. I have the same experience with ABS, I guess locking wheels early on, before ABS has taught me to not lock brakes, or at least not on purpose. Brake sliding the rear happens a lot off-road, so does spinning the rear as well. Does anyone know what kind of Rev Limiter Ingitechs have? Come to think, it would be good to know what kind of Limitors all the other Ignitions also have and where they are set to and if they are adjustable.

Its stuttering, thats if it a rev limiter.
My 1200 multistrada used to limit so hard it would have you out of the seat, Kawasakis just bang like you are hitting the kill switch, my KTM stutters and the dash goes orange and says ready to race which always amuses me

 

[smlav]

Was there not a thread a good while back where a 750 not revving was found to be dodgy wires feeding coil(s)?

 

[Rob]

The Ignitech system does have a (user variable) rev limiter setting. Beginning to sound more and more like you need to hook up a laptop to check (although a strobe will also show if the ignition is being momentarily killed to limit revs).
Hopefully you have suppressed plug caps? The system doesn't like running unsuppressed - optimum is unsuppressed copper HT leads with suppressed caps (or plugs themselves) - not both

 

[Spondon440]

The Ignitech system does have a (user variable) rev limiter setting. Beginning to sound more and more like you need to hook up a laptop to check (although a strobe will also show if the ignition is being momentarily killed to limit revs).
Hopefully you have suppressed plug caps? The system doesn't like running unsuppressed - optimum is unsuppressed copper HT leads with suppressed caps (or plugs themselves) - not both

I have hooked it up to a laptop but you know idea what you are doing and your just getting more confused.
The black box is a 4ch v96 and the software to use on my laptop is TCIP4 but on the drop down bike options there isn't one for a 750 twin certainly not a Laverda, there is one for Laverda 3x120 which isn't right obviously.
That said the box that says rev limiter does say no so there isn't a rev limiter.
I have a strobe that I've had for 40 years, its a gunsons one and it has features I cant remember how to use, its 20 years since I didn't have electronic ignition, what am I looking for when I run the strobe and what is it telling me?
I can see that the software can can check all sorts but I think it needs to have keiths software in to get the info to match, I'll ring him tomorrow and see what his thoughts are, personally I think there is either a fault on the sparker or the coils (quite unlikely) or I have made a balls of the wiring or there is a short somewhere that only happens at and above 4500 rpm, I'm not quite sure how to test that out unless it is obviously visible.
Everything is provided in keiths kit and the leads are moulded or glued to the coils, I fitted NGK suppressed plug caps.

Andy

 

[Paul Marx]

I have hooked it up to a laptop but you know idea what you are doing and your just getting more confused.
The black box is a 4ch v96 and the software to use on my laptop is TCIP4 but on the drop down bike options there isn't one for a 750 twin certainly not a Laverda, there is one for Laverda 3x120 which isn't right obviously.
That said the box that says rev limiter does say no so there isn't a rev limiter.
I have a strobe that I've had for 40 years, its a gunsons one and it has features I cant remember how to use, its 20 years since I didn't have electronic ignition, what am I looking for when I run the strobe and what is it telling me?
I can see that the software can can check all sorts but I think it needs to have keiths software in to get the info to match, I'll ring him tomorrow and see what his thoughts are, personally I think there is either a fault on the sparker or the coils (quite unlikely) or I have made a balls of the wiring or there is a short somewhere that only happens at and above 4500 rpm, I'm not quite sure how to test that out unless it is obviously visible.
Everything is provided in keiths kit and the leads are moulded or glued to the coils, I fitted NGK suppressed plug caps.

Andy

You strobe watching the A mark on the starter freewheel which should line up by 2500-3000 revs if the advance corresponds to the factory one.
Paul

 

[piranha-bro2]

Strobe won't tell you it's rev limiting (unless you can detect the strobe firing intermittently at 4500rpm.

When I started setting up my Ignitech unit I got into all sorts of trouble. Red came to the rescue (rolling his eyes I'd say!) - there are some VERY fundamental steps in the procedure that aren't intuitive ... like clicking 'Read' in the menus, which then gives you the actual programming that is in your unit. Without this initial step you're just looking at a default Ignitech page, NOT what's loaded onto your box. I think you will find that your unit is listed as 'custom'. And after any changes you need to hit 'Program', which then loads what you've created into your unit. Once you get a handle on it it isn't too complicated (there are parameters in there that I simply don't have the technical know-how to exploit (like 'Dwell' and several other parameters of that ilk).

It's definitely worth investing in a manual written by Liam Ventier at Fast Bike Gear in NZ. It's inexpensive and comprehensive and lays out the system in plainer English.

Simple download.

FastBikeGear's User Guide for Ignitech TCI-P4 [FBG-IGNT_Manual] - NZ $14.00 : FastBikeGear, Importers and Distributors of Motorcycle Accessories

Please note if you purchase an Ignitech unit from us, you will receive a free copy of this manual. If you are an overseas customer and have not bought an Ignition unit from us, you can till order this manual as a separate item here. This manual covers all versions of Ignitech's

www.fastbikegear.co.nz

 

[piranha-bro2]

Here are a couple of blurry screenshots of my early programs (since changed and upgraded to V96) - Bike page and Misc page. You can see the Limiter menu on the Misc page.

 

[redax5]

it is a very good idea to save a copy of the Ignition map that Keith has loaded into the Ignitech box before you attempt to make any changes
set up a new Folder on your Laptop somewhere that you know where it is
connect to the Ignitech box, your Ignition needs to be on
click on "Read", actual Ignition map will now appear within the software
go to the top and click on "File". then click on "Save", go and find the Folder you just made and give the Ignition map a file name
click on "Save" and you now have a Master Ignition map that you can fall back on if you stuff up your settings

 

[chrisk]

I should mention that my twins Ignitech had a similar issue, although at around those revs it was almost like it was running on one cylinder and happened intermittently. But when it happened, would not rev over that rev range …. intermittently.

Every fucking conceivable thing was looked in the mapping, coils, boards, Ignitech box exchanged, leads, plugs etc. and carbs. And just when it was thought the culprit was found, it’d shit itself again.

Red then found the problem….. the earth wire from the black box is soldered, by Ignitech, to the woven earth wire in the shielded cable. The factory soldering job was shit.

The ‘Victorian Laverda dealer’, Maurice, mentioned he had exactly the same issue, and resoldering, properly, fixed the problem in both cases.

 

[Vince]

Thats whats so great about this forum, spreading fixes to crazy hard to find issues. Its brilent when when owners report there experiences and bikes then run like a gooden. Over the years I have been banging my head when issues arrive, doing that insane thing, repeating fixes with no result. Its just so great when you finally crack a fix.

 

[piranha-bro2]

….. the earth wire from the black box is soldered, by Ignitech, to the woven earth wire in the shielded cable. The factory soldering job was shit.

Don't quite understand, Chris ... my Ignitech boxes are sealed with only the multipin connector and com cable visible. Not an earth strap in sight. Does that mean Red had to actually remove the waxed-in innards from the black casing and redo a soldered joint???!!!

 

[Rob]

on the drop down bike options there isn't one for a 750 twin certainly not a Laverda, there is one for Laverda 3x120 which isn't right obviously.
That said the box that says rev limiter does say no so there isn't a rev limiter.

I strongly recommend that you don't attempt to make any changes to the settings. It's unlikely that Keith has made a mistake with them and given you don't know what you're doing are unfamiliar with the Ignitech software, the chance of inadvertently altering something is high. There is no standard Ignitech programme for a Laverda twin that you can set using their drop down menu - and their triple options aren't great either!

As Red said, the first rule is to first 'read' and then 'save' the existing config. Then recheck the rev limiter setting. As it is, you've probably just seen the default Ignitech program rev limiter is not set because you haven't 'read' your box's config.

Using a strobe to confirm the timing is correct at full advance per Paul Marx post would provide reassurance that the Ignitech settings are indeed OK. In my case of a faulty trigger board, it was reasonably easy to see the strobe flashes were briefly interrupted when the intermittent fault manifested itself. In your case it would be useful to see what happens at 4,500rpm

 

[Spondon440]

So, spoke to Keith because I'd pretty much exhausted anything other than ignition, I did save the map Keith had in the box and the advise on using the software off here was very helpful, I never had any intention of adjusting anything but it is interesting to have an insight into how it works, anyway, what I did notice was that when I ran it on the software while monitoring it through my laptop it was showing twice the rpm, when I mentioned this to Keith he said it sounded like he may have loaded the wrong software and think he said it had too many pickups so it was actually thinking it was flat out so 4500rpm it was thinking it was doing 9000 rpm and there is a limiter at that.
He sent me another set of software but when I loaded it although it would rev over 4500 rpm it ran like shit, another phone call to Keith who suggested I set the timing disc again (so effectively reset the timing) and its all nice again, I think I'm sorted and I thank everyone for their help

Andy

 

[piranha-bro2]

Good job. There are many potential pitfalls within the Ignitech programme. Glad you've got it sorted. In the end it was indeed the rev limiter, but not for the reasons we predicted. I think the fact that the twin ignition turns at half crank speed can catch people out.

 

[tyelav13]

I had similar recently on my ts mirage, pulled strongly up to around 4k then seemed to hit a brick wall and on one occasion seemed to almost cut out. I opened the fuel cap and all of a sudden she is fine. I will be giving it a complete clean once I have some time in the garage soon.

 

[chrisk]

Don't quite understand, Chris ... my Ignitech boxes are sealed with only the multipin connector and com cable visible. Not an earth strap in sight. Does that mean Red had to actually remove the waxed-in innards from the black casing and redo a soldered joint???!!!

No, not in the box itself. But a shielded cable, maybe it was from the board to the box? Too long ago to remember clearly