'77 triple poor running

[Gravelroad]

If the left cylinder fires, then you obviously have a spark on that side. But if the left plug sparks on a 180? engine then so does the right because they're connected in series. [....]

Not true for a HKZ aka CDI bike. The ignition module has three separate CDI units, two of them being fired simultaneously by the same pickup. You can actually have a spark on only one of the outer cylinders if one of the units is failing.

 

[Alexb83]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions - I'm learning as I go.

There was a spark on all three plugs, I did test early on - I cleaned them (again) and replaced them this afternoon.

With a little bit of choke, again only LHS was firing.

A bit more choke, and none would fire.

Backed off the choke, massive backfire and then the bike came to life.

It still stalls from idle when cold (it did before) but if I apply minor throttle until it warms up, it ticks over happily enough.

Now to diagnose if the carbs have a good seal to the studs with easy start, and then to pull them and strip/clean as suggested.

I need to set my mind at ease as to what jets Poffer left in the them, because this thread... http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,85306.msg210621.html#msg210621 (which is all about this bike) sort of indicates they might not be what would be expected.

 

[Lee87H]

glad to hear you got it going,but looking back on the thread of this bike. that it's had running issues before,rebuild the carbs as it sounds like they need it, I've been in the same position as you ,rebuilt carbs,went through them 3 times after that,checked valve adjustment,checked compression, the great spark always threw me off, I know a new ignition is expensive ,but it's the best thing you can do for one of these engines,  Cheers

 

[Vince]

The first time my bike started with a modern ignition it made a strange sound, it had a rock solid idle I hadn't hear before in the 10 years of ownership. Great improvement and well worth it.

 

[Rob]

The choke circuit works independently to the rest of the carb jets. You've confirmed fuel in float bowls, so you either have blocked choke jets or the ignition is playing hit and miss. I'd certainly expect the bike to readily fire up from cold. The vagaries of 40 year old electronics & known frailty of old HKZ black boxes should not be ignored, as Lee's experience shows! 

Not sure what you mean by "stalls from idle when cold"  If you crack open the throttle without any choke, I'd expect that...especially if those 55 pilots are still in there.

My usual Dell'Orto starting procedure on triples & twins is apply full choke, no throttle, crank the engine and back off the choke half way when it fires.  The choke can usually be pushed fully off 10-15 seconds later.  If working correctly, tweaking the choke lever will regulate engine speed after a cold start ... no need to touch the throttle. 

Operating the throttle when cranking from cold with the choke on will negate much of the choke circuit operation because the vacuum created by a closed throttle slide is lost.  HTH

 

[CLEMTOG]

you are about to remove the carbs I detect?
that being the case, do not "Wrestle them off" as you said in an earlier post.
The stub type carb bodies are very fragile, and must be removed from the inlets very carefully, once you have loosed the pinch clamps, It is possible to get them ofF using pry bars of various sorts, but be sure at all time the female part of the carbs is SQUARE to the stubs, do not do any "wiggling" at all, in fact it is a lot safer to remove the six nuts and washers from the stub to head joint (you must take them off and inspect for cracked broken "ears" anyway") but that is very fiddly although do-able.
when the carbs are in your hands inspect the engine side carefully, remove the plastic heat shield liner if it came with the carbs (sometimes stays with the stubs) and be sure that all four portions of the female part of the periphery are in tact. THESE CARB BODIES CANNOT BE FOUND NEW ANY LONGER.

on the bench and you have a short strip of steel at the top, six bolts, then another six bolts (CSK) on the front plate and the carbs then come free from the brackets, mark all of the banjo positions with a metal marker, before you remove the fuel hoses (you will need new stuff of that as well 1.3 metres per bike)

 

[Alexb83]

The choke circuit works independently to the rest of the carb jets. You've confirmed fuel in float bowls, so you either have blocked choke jets or the ignition is playing hit and miss. I'd certainly expect the bike to readily fire up from cold. The vagaries of 40 year old electronics & known frailty of old HKZ black boxes should not be ignored, as Lee's experience shows! 

Not sure what you mean by "stalls from idle when cold"  If you crack open the throttle without any choke, I'd expect that...especially if those 55 pilots are still in there.

My usual Dell'Orto starting procedure on triples & twins is apply full choke, no throttle, crank the engine and back off the choke half way when it fires.  The choke can usually be pushed fully off 10-15 seconds later.  If working correctly, tweaking the choke lever will regulate engine speed after a cold start ... no need to touch the throttle. 

Operating the throttle when cranking from cold with the choke on will negate much of the choke circuit operation because the vacuum created by a closed throttle slide is lost.  HTH

Rob, stalling from idle - i.e. if I start it (typically I need to maintain a slight touch of throttle) and release the throttle to idle whilst the engine is still cold - it stalls out.
If I maintain a slight throttle until the motor has warmed slightly, it will then idle happily with a closed throttle.

Thanks for the advice on the carbs, Clem - I will take it easy when I get to it. I suppose the main aim at the moment is to strip, clean, establish what jetting is installed and then have a bit of a head scratch.
I have plenty of carb cleaner and have access to an ultrasonic bath that should take all three whilst still attached to the gallery.

Vince - I am biting the bullet and buying a new ignition/charging system from Red. But it'll probably be the new year before that arrives and gets installed.

 

[Rob]

If I maintain a slight throttle until the motor has warmed slightly, it will then idle happily with a closed throttle.

Pretty much normal operation then.  Suggests idle mixture not massively over-rich.

 

[2622]

Rob, stalling from idle - i.e. if I start it (typically I need to maintain a slight touch of throttle) and release the throttle to idle whilst the engine is still cold - it stalls out.
If I maintain a slight throttle until the motor has warmed slightly, it will then idle happily with a closed throttle.

Vince - I am biting the bullet and buying a new ignition/charging system from Red. But it'll probably be the new year before that arrives and gets installed.

With Dellorto's that is pretty much standard fare to be honest............if its idling now there nought to much wrong with them.
do your self a favour and have a squiz at JLO's site before tackling the carbs... might just save you some head scratching.

http://www.laverdamania.net/carbgb.htm

If you had a fuel leak at the right carb ....now its stopped then guess what it will come back eventually, needle valves are a consumable item, they are not expensive, if you have the carbs off them please replace them and also make sure that the float heights are set correctly between 17.5 to 18.5. The only way I have found to get them exact is with the carbs off the bike and in the correct orientation.

As for leaving them on the gallery you will find the whole cleaning, setting floats and such much much easier with them individually its fairly simple to remove them and refit together... at the end either way you will still need to sync them. You can use a drill bit under the slides to get them fairly close if you dont have access to a set of gauges... what you are looking for is to have each slide rising at precisely the same time.  ( gauges can actually give you a false read here but lets not open a can of worms shall we )

Tried clear bowls, draining and measuring and all that crap and guess what the way Dellorto advises is the only way to get spot on.

Good move on the ignition the bike will love you for it...................

If you want it to tick over at idle when cold then save a few more reddies up and buy a modern set of carbs from Red......
as going down the route I took will cost you way more .

 

[Dellortoman]

Not true for a HKZ aka CDI bike. The ignition module has three separate CDI units, two of them being fired simultaneously by the same pickup. You can actually have a spark on only one of the outer cylinders if one of the units is failing.

Yes.  I forgot it was HKZ  :-[

 

[Alexb83]

So, I'm starting the process of changing to a redax ignition.

Using a generously donated alternator puller though, I am having difficulty putting the puller on more than a couple of threads.

The male thread does feel like it has a few dings. I dont want to overdo this and strip it.



Any advice? Was there variety in these threads (ie do i have the wrong puller)

 

[Grant]

If it is the correct puller then it has to be screwed on to the rotor threads all the way, not just a couple of turns.
You are trying to break the grip it has on the tapered shaft, located by a Woodruff key into the correct position on the crank.
It should free with a distinct 'clunk' and then you should be able to pull it off by hand. Remember to keep the Woodruff key safe once the rotor is removed.

 

[Lee87H]

you need a thread file and clean up those threads

 

[Simonr501]

Swiss or Needle files may also do the job!
The half round ones have quite a fine angle. Triangular ones not so good.

A quick application of heat on the rotor, not shaft would be beneficial.

 

[Dellortoman]

Not too much heat or you'll kill the magnets. I know you'll be installing a different rotor with the Redax system, but the existing one might be useful for someone. My old rotor came in handy when the one on my brother's bike broke one of its magnets.

 

[Scrumpy]

So, I'm starting the process of changing to a redax ignition.

Using a generously donated alternator puller though, I am having difficulty putting the puller on more than a couple of threads.

The male thread does feel like it has a few dings. I dont want to overdo this and strip it.

Any advice? Was there variety in these threads (ie do i have the wrong puller)

Alex,
You are welcome to try my other puller although I am sure the thread is the same. I also have a thread file if you need it.

 

[2622]

So, I'm starting the process of changing to a redax ignition.

Using a generously donated alternator puller though, I am having difficulty putting the puller on more than a couple of threads.

The male thread does feel like it has a few dings. I dont want to overdo this and strip it.



Any advice? Was there variety in these threads (ie do i have the wrong puller)

As per others get yourself a thread file son and clean up the thread before you bugger the puller, unlikely, or stuff it up the rotor.
if the puller is on all the way then should come off without too much grief.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metric-Thread-File-0-75-3-00mm-Pitch-for-Studs-Bolts-Driveshafts-etc-AE2670/111912081275?hash=item1a0e7ad77b:g:wBsAAOSwB4NWxEs1
I wouldn't be using heat, If you simply must use a third party type supplement ( and for the life of me cannot understand why you would need to ) then freeze spray on the crank. 

 

[Lav the impala]

Go and get your partners diamond nail file, remove the puller, you will see where the thread is binding up by the shiny marks on the alternator thread, with the diamond nail file, file back the high spots and try the puller again, repeat until you get the puller on at least 5mm, at this point tighten the puller screw as fucking tight (Ft) as you can, then at this point if it does not come off, get a copper hammer or a hammer and a soft piece of metal to place against the puller screw head and hit the fucking thing coz it?s got no friends, alternator should almost fall off except the magnets will not let it fall.
As a matter of interest, a grade 8, M10 x 1.5p bolt will hold more than 3Tons on only one and a half threads.

 

[nick7]

There are some pullers that pull themselves right over the thread..dont ask me how I know!  Now running Red / sachse...

 

[Alexb83]

Thanks everyone, after much filing 3.5 threads was enough to overcome the friction in the end.

Aside from the old reg/rectifier the old charging and ignition system is now off the bike.

I did have to dremel off one small nut from the old coil mount, but otherwise everything came off intact.

New coils are mounted, tomorrow should be sufficient time to feed through the stator/ignition wiring and get everything ready to try and set the timing on wednesday.

The limiting factor at the moment is the cold!