Alternative Carbs for a 180

is CEV italian and do they have motorcycle switches? I did not know that... They tried CEV on the turn signals I think partly, but for switches I am not sure... and who is SIEM? I only know SIEMENS...  :D
 
1000/3C_Stefan said:
Grant said:
Didn't CEV make some?
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Add SIEM to the list...
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And Aprilia* - Aileen's little MV ('78?) has Aprilia switches that look like copies of the ND switches we know and love.

Bob

* though I've been told it's not the same Aprilia as make the bikes...
 
OK - OK - go the point, there are italian switch manufacturers...  :LOL: Not sure why they used the ND's then - maybe because they used the ND clocks already (750 SF1 had still Lucas switches but already ND Clocks). Maybe 10 years more in business, and we would have seen CV carbs on a Laverda...  :o

:D
 
Would YOU use '70s Italian switchgear if you could use Jap switchgear???? :o
 
Contempary italian switches were crap compared to what the japs were producing at the time.  Just have to take one apart to appreciate the quality, seem to last forever and takes a real fool to bust them. The pinnacle in italian quality and design must go to de Tomaso era Guzzis and Benellis, the Lego-style switches fell apart the second time they were operated, not to speak of wear and corrosion from moisture ingress.  CEV et al weren't any better, took quite a while for them to catch up, which imho they never really acieved.  Much the same applies to the clocks...

Apparently, Laverdas' policy of fitting the best quality components available let them search outside of Italy for their ancilleries, and I am very glad they did so.

The Dellorto PHB/PHF/PHM was one of the most modern carbs at the time, it had only just replaced the aging SSI/MA/MB range, in fact, triple #1001 wears sand cast PHF bodies, probably a pre mass production type.  The VHB was introduced somewhere mid-60s, so that was state-of-the-art as well.  Only advantage jap carbs of the era have is that they wear better.  Mikuni and Keihin apparently had a closer look at material pairings and often fitted chrome plated brass slides in the alloy bodies.  Perhaps they lost out in Breganze because the choice of large carbs from jap manufacturers at the time was quite limited, they were going flat out suppling the jap industry with relatively small instruments with 28-30mm being about the largest available sizes and given the limited numbers of bikes expected to be built, a completely new development would probably have been out of the question financially.

piet
 
There was a blue 750 with 40mm Bings for sale a couple of years ago.
If Scrumpy was around I'm certain he could provide a pic.
 
hochkoenig said:
Imagine Laverdas with Bing Carbs.... :'(
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Why not?  Bloody good instruments and very easy to set up.  The Bing 54 range is only about 2/3 the weight of a PHF of the same size, and wears far better.  A real aluminium alloy body as opposed to the zinc crap used in mass production Dellorto and Amal instruments.

piet
 
i went up in one of those light kit planes that was sucking through just one Bing carby.  worked very good,,  fortunately.
had a flat six motor designed up in Bundy rum country.  was a Jabiru thing, or something.
a great way to get around this country.  and no cops !

,,  now,  would i take off and fly trusting just one Dell'O carby ??  aarrrr ???
 
sfcpiet said:
Contempary italian switches were crap compared to what the japs were producing at the time.  Just have to take one apart to appreciate the quality, seem to last forever and takes a real fool to bust them. The pinnacle in italian quality and design must go to de Tomaso era Guzzis and Benellis, the Lego-style switches fell apart the second time they were operated, not to speak of wear and corrosion from moisture ingress.  CEV et al weren't any better, took quite a while for them to catch up, which imho they never really acieved.  Much the same applies to the clocks...
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I've read this a number of times and don't understand what you have done to the switches.  ::) I've got several old Guzzis from that era and except for one side on one bike that was changed by a PO they have their original switchgear and they all work. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe I'm a magician but I don't think so. I'm estimating that these bikes have got something like a combined total of 400,000km.

A couple of times I've read that they should be removed ASAP and thrown down the back of the yard. I've replied that I'd happily pay postage if they were not wanted and they could throw them at me. I've never gotten one.

That is in stark contrast to my 36,000 mile 84 Alpino that has needed a new ignition switch and the indicator switch needs a thumb of steel to operate. Every time I go to operate any electrics on the Alpino something doesn't work as the bundle of spaghetti in the headlight shell has been "vibrated." On arrival the headlight refused to work. On investigation I found one of the cutter connectors had never sliced through the insulation. The headlight had never operated until 2011.  ::) A day ride only, obviously.

I similarly don't have an issue with the Dellortos. They can wear like anything can but I have never been unable to balance and tune to a satisfactory level. What I normally find is that they have been jetted by someone who has read a single classic bike article and thinks they know better than the design engineers at the factory.  ::) Like many things like twin plugging as well as different carbs I'm amazed at the effort taken after the modification to get things right. I always wonder if that much effort was taken pre modification how much improvement would have been found.

Just my experience.

Rod
 
Morizzi said:
That is in stark contrast to my 36,000 mile 84 Alpino that has needed a new ignition switch and the indicator switch needs a thumb of steel to operate.
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A little maintenance in the form of a drop of oil/squirt of WD40 does work wonders sometimes! :D 

Morizzi said:
A couple of times I've read that they should be removed ASAP and thrown down the back of the yard.
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At least not only my opinion...

piet
 
sfcpiet said:
Morizzi said:
That is in stark contrast to my 36,000 mile 84 Alpino that has needed a new ignition switch and the indicator switch needs a thumb of steel to operate.
Click to expand...
A little maintenance in the form of a drop of oil/squirt of WD40 does work wonders sometimes! :D 

Morizzi said:
A couple of times I've read that they should be removed ASAP and thrown down the back of the yard.
Click to expand...
At least not only my opinion...

piet
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No, not only your opinion. I'm sure there are many but that doesn't mean you are right. I've got hundreds of thousands of km's with that switch gear. I'm basing my posts on personal experience.  :D Other's experiences may vary of course.  8)

WD 40 in switchgear!!!!!!  :o No wonder you have had issues. That only makes it worse. Squirt any liquid in there and the switch won't budge at all. Don't you think I tried a few things?

I'm not making this stuff up to be difficult. Its just the way it is.  ;)
 
Morizzi said:
WD 40 in switchgear!!!!!!  :o No wonder you have had issues. That only makes it worse. Squirt any liquid in there and the switch won't budge at all. 
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Perhaps you've waited too long...

Never had issues with the ND indicator switches myself, routine maintenance with a little lubrication keeps the switches operating smoothly.  Only metal-to-metal contact inside, don't see any reason not to use WD40 or similar.  When I have them open, they get a squirt of aerosol water-proof grease before re-assembly.

I'd probably have second thoughts with "modern" plastic bodied switchgear.

Only issue I have with the Laverda switches is the light switch.  When switching to high beam while wearing thick winter gloves, I've often switched off the lights completely.  Stupid thing to happen when romping along at 100+!  Doesn't happen with my snug fitting sommer gloves.

piet

 
WD40 is a water dispersant and contains a greasy substrate that will remain once the dispersant has evaporated. It is not designed for use in electrical switches and will eventually gather dust and dirt to make the switch fail again.

A switch/electrical contact cleaner is the right thing to use for the switch. If the lever doesn't move smoothly, it is probably because the plastic slider (between the indicator switch and the body) has fallen off. Almost every switch I have seen has no slider.....and yes, it's an important part for smooth operation.

Pete
 
Thanks Pete, I'll keep the plastic slide in mind when I eventually get to it. Its way down my list at the moment.  :D

I've only had the bike here for a year. It was in a bit of a sad state when I got it. It now starts, runs, idles and most of the electrics work most of the time.  :LOL: Took me a while but I got there.

The indicator switch works stiffly when it is dry. Squirt anything in there and I do mean anything and it just seizes.  :LOL: I normally treat reluctant switch gear with water based degreaser first. Helps to get rid of all the years of greasy crud. Then I use contact cleaner if it is ok-ish. If it needs more serious treatment on the contacts then I squirt in some dilute phosphoric acid to remove the oxidation and corrosion and rinse thoroughly after a few minutes. Whatever I do I have to wait until it dries before it will work.

Back to the carbs.

I can still get 5 - 5.5 L/100km out of my 1981 Guzzi LM III with the original PHF 36's. The bike has done at least 220,000km that I know of. They are the lean burn version with the small brass shroud pressed into the needle jet orifice.  That is the claimed fuel consumption of that bike new. I have given it a top end refresh a year or so ago.

I haven't varied from the OEM jetting that much and I've had to reduce it from when I purchased it. It was running way too rich and the extra fuel has washed the bores and caused excess wear. There is a wear lip in the nigasil. Still, a new set of rings and it still runs fine.

OEM is 115 mains. 50 idle
PO  was 145 mains. 60 idle
Me is 120 mains 56 idle.

I won't go into needles etc but I had to lean them out a bit too back towards OEM.

A 145 jet is able to supply 60% more fuel than a 115. 60%  :o Probably be fine for the track but it is just silly on the road. You are just wasting fuel and washing bores. I'm guessing it was done as earlier Lemans had bigger jetting due to no shroud and the PO didn't understand the difference. The needle and atomiser control this to a degree but not entirely. I find the cross over ranges in a Dellorto are huge despite the neat specific zones described in the tuning manual.

In 1983 I toured Europe on a LM III. My friend was on a R100RS fitted with Bings. We rode together day after day. Very similar performance between the 1000 boxer and 850 Guzzi. At a fuel stop I would always put in 0.1 - 0.2L more than he did. A very small percentage. Was it the carbs or the different wind profiles? I don't know but there wasn't a lot in it.

I plan to stick with the Dellortos and leave the fuel tank where it is. 
 
markQLD said:
Morizzi said:
... I've read that they should be removed ASAP and thrown down the back of the yard.
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ay Morizzi,   no, no, no !

ya need to throw them much harder,  so they do not land in ya backyard.  ok.    :D
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I stand corrected.  :LOL: Just keep throwing them at me.  :P
 
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