Alternative Carbs for a 180

The bog stock standard SFC1000 delivered 95 ponies (+/- 2, usually +2!), consistently, which isn't bad at all taking into account that the bike met current german regulations at the time.  The Moto Witt dyno verified these figures many times.  As a matter of fact, we always stuck a SFC1000 on the dyno when an unbelieving Guzzi or Ducati owners' bike failed to fulfill expectations! :D  The unbeliever could choose which one if we had more than one standing around... he then realised why he hadn't stood a chance against a standard triple on the road.

I remember one particular example that had its exhaust system only replaced, it pushed out 104...  This exhaust system wasn't even very "scientific", with a bit of fiddling this figure could well have been improved on.  Where does that put the gain from your carbs Lothar, if your exhaust is truely optimized?  I'd say, just a little extra, all that can be expected without seriously re-working ports and valve seats and swapping cams.

A more efficient exhaust will create a higher vacuum in the system and extract exhaust gases from the combustion chamber, thus creating an over-filling effect which in turn results in a bigger bang, even with the smaller 32mm carbs.  This can be further increased with an appropriate choice of valve timing/overlap.  The 120? configuration is also a considerable aid, giving even firing impulses and therefore even and consistant vacuum in the exhaust, which explains in part its comparitively smooth and consistant power delivery across the entire rev range.

The small carbs in reality do not create a "bottleneck", they are in fact a venturi and speed up the charge compared to larger carbs at low- and mid-range, they are slightly lacking in size at the top-end only.  The boys in Breganze really knew what they were doing imho.  You are correct in assuming the carbs were already homologated, in fact, the SFC was certified with the RGS homologation... ::)

With your 40mm carbs, you are experiencing a serious drop in air velocity at the mixing chamber, highest air velocity will be somewhere mid-way down the intake port near the valve guide where the port cross-section tightens up slightly.  Without attention to the cylinder head, you will not fully exploit the capabilities of your carbs.

Lothar, we can stick our bikes on a dyno back-to-back this winter if you like.  I know of a place that charges ?30 for a series of runs, easy no-hassle booking.  Oliver will probably come along with his 980cc (he puts a lot of emphasis on that!)Beemer too, that'll open your eyes! :D

Rant well and truely over (I suspect we're boring everybody),
piet :-*
 
sfcpiet said:
The small carbs in reality do not create a "bottleneck", they are in fact a venturi and speed up the charge compared to larger carbs at low- and mid-range, they are slightly lacking in size at the top-end only.  The boys in Breganze really knew what they were doing imho.
piet :-*

What? More than the collective knowledge of a group of untrained tinkerers on an internet forum? Surely not Piet.... :D :D :D
 
sfcpiet said:
I remember one particular example that had its exhaust system only replaced, it pushed out 104...  ...   Where does that put the gain from your carbs if your exhaust is truely optimized? 

Well - actually, the top peak we had was 110HP with a different muffler, but with a drop in midrange. That made us go back to the other muffler again which delivered a clean midrange with a bit lower top power. So - not bad at all...  ;)


sfcpiet said:
The small carbs in reality do not create a "bottleneck", they are in fact a venturi and speed up the charge compared to larger carbs at low- and mid-range, they are slightly lacking in size at the top-end only. 

...and that is what I said: at WOT, the diameter may make a difference... The 32mm PHF do work better than the PHM40 - I agree. Why? Because the crappy design gets compensated by higher air-flow which compensates the lack of vaporization by higher air-speed. The Keihins do have a completely different atomizer, the RS even have the "Hyper-snoozle" (which I am not sure works better than the Keihins technology...). The vaporization of the fuel does not only have to do with air-speed overall but airspeed and lack of resistance in airflow in the whole system, especially around the needle and at the atomizer (the little brass part the needle slides in and out when you look into the carbs while lifting/lowering the slider). This part is responsible (mainly) for how good a carb works or not. Modify a PHF at that place and you will gain torque, I am pretty sure... But still, the 32mm PHF has the lowest airspeed exactly at that place, as the diameter of the slider is 38mm. So - coming from 32mm opening to a max of 38mm to go back to 32mm does improve airflow? I am not convinced, I am sorry...

Added to that, you can use power-blades for low- to midrange (which I do) which give an even better throttle response on flat-slides. Hart to do on PHF's, but not impossible. one should try that...  ;)

sfcpiet said:
With your 40mm carbs, you are experiencing a serious drop in air velocity at the mixing chamber, highest air velocity will be somewhere mid-way down the intake port near the valve guide where the port cross-section tightens up slightly.  Without attention to the cylinder head, you will not fully exploit the capabilities of your carbs.

100% agree to that last part. You know of someone who can fix a head?  :D I also said already that 40mm is on the very large side, however, with the better fuel vaporization of the Keihins compared to the Dell'Ortos, torque and throttle response is really way better than on the PHF or (and especially) on the PHM. Can't be THAT bad then, right?  ;) And again: the diameter around the needle on a PHF32mm is 38mm (slider diameter). This is a better velocity?

sfcpiet said:
Lothar, we can stick our bikes on a dyno back-to-back this winter if you like.  I know of a place that charges ?30 for a series of runs, easy no-hassle booking.  Oliver will probably come along with his 980cc (he puts a lot of emphasis on that!)Beemer too, that'll open your eyes! :D

piet :-*

As soon as the head is fixed, sure, why not  ;) I had the bike on 2 different dynos (acceleration type ones I must admit), both showed same figures within a range of maybe a HP or two.

Regarding the boys in Breganze: yes, they knew what they were doing. But they did not have access to Keihins FCR or Mikuni RS, as simply they were not on the market in the 70's...  ;) And even if they would have been: do you really think that they would have used asian technology carbs on an italian bike?!?!?!?  :o NEVER!! Time has just gone 40+ years down the road and tons of new technologies have been developed. Or how else could we today squeeze 15HP and similar torque out of the same engine by just altering the exhaust system?
 
Hi Ken
Interesting topic :)  I did do a reasonably scientific test with the same bike and a well set up set of MIkunis vs dellortos. I would say as reasonably accurate as is practical, however the RS Mikunis & dellortos were both 38mm. Same bike, same dyno plus another same make dyno later, same year, and no other changes.

I found overall, the power down by approx 5-10 percent and the torque less of course, since they're related. I regained some of the lost power by removing the filters, which we found were restricting airflow on this motor at peak revs, 7800 - 8000 ceiling. One could deduce from that...that had I run the mikunis without airfilters and raised the rev limit, the power would have increased by the same amount.
There is no doubt in my mind and experience that the mikunis are easier to use, work with, set up and provide a broader spread of power but New dellortos, with is what they are, were and are pretty good once set up. For the record they are PHM 38's which are a larger casting of the PHF range. These " in my case", run without the "Bell" ? tops, which makes it a bit harder to obtain a light throttle and short throttle travel combined but there are other reasons for that.

My changes were also because the Mikunis are generally not well accepted in classic racing over here, although of course, you should always read the regs and accept that if you do win, others might find something else to complain about  ???

regards
Rob
mcnicol said:
Bomber, you ought to take a look through the archives, there's lots of comments on this topic. Mikuni RS36s are the most common aftermarket carbs, Red sells them and the necessary adapter kit for fitting them (including angled inlet stubs so they fit properly). I still haven't seen anyone who's done a dyno run with properly-working DellOrtos then done another run with the only change being a swap to Mikunis, but everybody who's done the swap notices more power and torque throughout the rev range. Then doing all the other stuff will get as much power as you want to pay for. Red is really the best person for advice on the various options here.
Mikuni TMR 36s are another choice a small number of forum members have used, available with Laverda spacing from Topham's in Germany as special order. Not a plug-and-play solution, tuning parts are not easy to get. Somewhat similar to Mikuni RSs but a lot more expensive, with the slides running on rollers. Japanese home-market only versions (available a while ago anyway from Yoshimura Japan for GSX-Rs) have hollow slide needles with multiple orifices squirting fuel into the carburetor, but you can't buy these unless you know somebody in Japan. If they're still making them, that is.
Keihin FCR33s have also been used on a few Laverdas, nice carburetors but there's not much information available on setting them up. Topham's in Germany again or Sudco. One forum member in New Zealand has CV carbs off a Honda that seem to work reasonably well but may not be a good choice for maximum power. And there was a triple in the Canberra area that ran quite well with CV carbs from a 2-stroke Suzuki 750 triple, although that was some time ago and also was probably not a maximum power machine. Probably quite a few others too that I don't know about.
You could contact Malcolm Cox in the UK and ask him if he's interested in selling his purple turbo triple, make him a good enough offer and who knows? That probably has considerably more than 105 bhp. And it's purple :D.

Ken
 
Can I have a hyper-snoozle?
Sounds trick.  :-*

Would it be possible to fit fuel injectors inside the shell of a Dellorto carb?
Not that I would condone such cheating in classic races, ahem...
 
Robjota said:
I found overall, the power down by approx 5-10 percent and the torque less of course, since they're related.

I assume you mean changing from Mikuni to Dell'Orto, the power and torque dropped, right? So - higher Power and torque with the Mikunis, lower on the Dell'Orto, right? Just to avoid missunderstanding  ;)

On the other side, the PHM38mm have a 44 or 46mm slider. This would make the situation I described even worse... And one could also argue, that your bike is not to much close to standard and Piet was refering to gains only being possible with modified engines.

However, your comparison comes closest to what Ken asked for, I agree.

Wonder that Red did not chim in yet, he should have the most experience with bikes running Dell'Orto vs. Mikunis by now...  :D

@Grant: honestly, I have discussed that several times with some people already (no names...  ;) ) but when you see that the Zane 750 Formula put out the highest Power and Torque with some Keihin FCR's on it, I wonder where the sense of it would be...  ;) that said, I did not try the Power-Commander (yet) on the Formula...   ;)

Also - the cables coming from the EFI to the carb bodies would be an obvious indicator that there is something hiding...  ;)

Grant said:
Can I have a hyper-snoozle?
Sounds trick.  :-*

not sure YOU would benefit from one, but maybe your bikes...  :D
 
Laverdalothar said:
Wonder that Red did not chim in yet, he should have the most experience with bikes running Dell'Orto vs. Mikunis by now...  :D

I'm too busy building engines Lothar, will sit back and watch you fight the good cause
have nothing really to add anyway, I run Mikuni's and prefer them, generally refuse to work on Dellorto's if I can get away with it
life is too short to stuff around trying to get a clapped out 35 year old set of Dells working properly

 
Let me be more direct and rephrase that then, WTF is a hyper-snoozle????  (bolt)  :-*
 
Its just for information Lothar, how you interpret results is up to you. Im not trying to convince anyone what carbs to use. I had my own reasons for changing carbs over and it was an expensive move.

There are 3 tests:
043 is the final development/tune with Mikuni RS38 in early 2012, fuelling pretty much optimized as per previous year, rev limit 8K on ECU which sometimes falls short by 100 rpm in real life.

061 was on the same Dyno, in 2012 with Dellorto PHM 38's running with and without air filters, trying with and without A/P's THis was the best run, We got peak power up somewhere close to the Mikuni set up but only because I removed what we found was the restrictive air filters and raising the rev limit.

Base Run 10 was done later in the year, with True velocity stacks, but limited rejetting on another Dynojet 250 dyno. THe operators style was completely different and I went on to further jet the bike and adjust needles on the track based on feel, plug chops and what readings I obtained from that 010 run.
No question that the stacks made the bike run leaner.
Clearer image here
http://s1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/Robjota/?action=view&current=DellortovsMikunis-info.jpg
DellortovsMikunis-info.jpg

[img wi
 
it is actually a drilled hole in that little brass part that shall (!!) improve vaporization. Hyper-Nozzle is the right word, but I can not find a picture anymore in the web to show you what it does (maybe it doesn't do anything and that is why the pics are removed?!? not sure).

Theory behind it is that the PHF f.e. have that brass part in the center of the inlet channel as a round tube with a flat top which would make the air suck the gas out of the combustion chamber. Due to stickiness of the gas to the needle (in theory...), the gas goes up the needle and gets taken away from the needle by the air that goes around the needle. The higher the speed the lower the point this happens up to a point where it only "sprays" into the inlet channel directly at the top of that little brass part.

On Mikunis, the side that point to the engine is - If I remember the picture right - cut away in a roughly 30? angle. The side that points to the open inlet of the carb has a little hole drilled in. this way, a very high speed air-stream sprays the gas away very early into the inlet side of the engine and vaporizes the gas with high speed air. At least in theory I can follow the theory that it does good in low-end.

The Keihins also have that angled cut-out at the rear, but they do not have that hole drilled. In this case, there is an underpressure produced by the shape of the brass part that causes the gas to be taken off the needle and to be vaporized into the air-stream. Still they work good or even better than the RS, so, please make your own mind about if that piece of technology owned by Mikuni makes any difference.  ;)
 
One last remark... :D

Thanks for the diagrams Rob!

1.5hp at the top end is NOT a sustantial increase as far as I am concerned.  Even if the Mikunis ran better unfiltered as in the final Dellorto setup, the difference would perhaps only add up to 3hp.  

Less than 3%, according to what I learnt at school.

Case closed...

piet
 
Glad to help, costs enough to do.
There was an interesting article in last month ILOC mag about 2 triple owners doing a shoot out on the same dyno at PDQ, at least they should help to dispel any myths about the dyno being rigged in favour of Laverdas...

The red graph bike is almost certainly running rich or lean mid range, hope he got it sorted...The other bike was still making power  but not revved over 7200
http://s1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/Robjota/?action=view&current=3Cvs3CLDYno.jpg

Click the image to supersize it.


markQLD said:
sfcpiet said:
Thanks for the diagrams Rob!
+1
good info mate,  better than watching the tele !
cheers,  Mark
 
Laverdalothar said:
Regarding the boys in Breganze: yes, they knew what they were doing. But they did not have access to Keihins FCR or Mikuni RS, as simply they were not on the market in the 70's...  ;) And even if they would have been: do you really think that they would have used asian technology carbs on an italian bike?!?!?!?  :o NEVER!!

Didn't stop them using Jappo switches and gauges though, eh ???  :LOL:
 
Davo said:
Didn't stop them using Jappo switches and gauges though, eh ???  :LOL:

I am not sure there is an italian manufacturer of bike switch units... Magneti Marelli didn't produce any as far as I am aware (and they did not even trust them to much, as they used Bosch where ever they could after recognizing that Lucas wasn't up to the job...). So - do you know of any?

;)
 
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