Battery Chargers

78jotadave

78jotadave

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Location
Palm Desert, California. (near Palm Springs)
I have been following Rob's and John's comments and the valuable information and insights of the thread 'Regulator rectifier series 1 Laverda 1200 180'
It is good stuff, of particular interest for me, as I own a 78 Jota with a Moto Witt 2 ignition, and I installed the additional charger coil and Shindengen RR To date, it has been in place for well over 19 years, and it has performed without issues. In that time period I went through 4 AGM batteries, one of which lasted > 9 years . The 4th battery is in place II think it is giving up the fight.
My 78 1200 Jota Yankee has an Ignitech ignition, which, as far as I know, was sourced from RedAx; it is not the full conversion,(many thanks to Red for helping me with the setup program). The bike has the original Bosch pickup coil and charging coils. It does have a Shindengen RR 7754A, and I have been running a 20AH 12V Lithium battery. Man, those things are lightweight (6 pounds). I have had no problems with charging to date, and I do move the battery from one bike to the other (10 min job max).
In the 1200, the previous owner connected a charging light on the dashboard, which lights up whenever the revs drop below 2200RPM when the headlight is on, so it has been no problem so far. It does the same thing with either an AGM or a Lithium battery.

I have in the past, always put lead/acid or AGM batteries on a slow trickle maintenance charge . My question is, I see there are battery chargers out there that supposedly can charge and maintain any battery, lead acid, AGMs, and now Lithium batteries without having to throw a switch. Does anyone have insight or experience with these chargers I have an Optimus charger for Lead/acid and AGM, and I also have a Battery Tender Junior. Of note, the Lithium battery always reads 13.75v at rest, never less, I have not checked it while charging on the bike.

Food for thought, any replies appreciated.

ps. One of my first jobs was with the PMG (I'm old). Apprentices were sent out to telephone exchanges and Micro wave relay stations to maintain the banks of massive lead acid batteries. Some of those lead-acid batteries were more than 30 years old; they don't make 'em like they used to. I'll shut up now.1759005203853.png
 
As you type Dave the bells ring in unison, if not the world, here the same same. As you, was apprentice from 1971 as Telegraph Mechanic ( PMG would not allow us to be called Technician, worked for Plessey in Crossbar ). Battery rooms were impressive to a 16yo... Haymarket and Pitt street were massive. Load testing of the rectifiers ( minus 48Volt "negative battery" as you know ), were baths of load resistors steaming away in the yard for suburban exchanges. Battery plate chemistry was basic, in compound, another topic/time.

Lot of product on the market for charging flooded cell batteries to latest "lithium" remarkable performance from these latter batteries still amazes me. Cannot speak with any wide ranging hands on, repaired a few chargers including 25A Ctek's, not actual latest types. From internal impedance measurement types to guesstimate actual float voltage and sag performance, anyones guess as to how efficient or real world capability in maintaining a long service life of various types, "automatic regime" has my alarm eyes activated. Remain unconvinced, for what that is worth. Not that external chargers have the final say, many of the larger batteries have in built "BMS" controlling the charge and discharge.

Recently installed 100ah Lithium caravan battery beeped at me from under the seat indicating my Ctek was going into "equalize cell charge mode" and shut off the "equalize" current. May well be the here now or coming Lithium batteries for large capacity motorbike use will have a BMS that can handle the cold crank start current, modern electronics and clever young engineers should not be short sold on what once was no longer applies from the era i came from, Dave and one other here know what that era had, not applicable these days. j.

*** later i moved into UPS for finance data centres, battery rooms the size of houses, 4KA discharge at 500V DC link, 700Kva single unit UPS to 4Mva mass parallel units, Rotary convertors also, 4 linked Cat 1Mva diesel gensets on warmed coolant rapid starts.... one of the most amazing was invited into the engine room with chief engineer of a US Coast Guard ice breaker... never blinked the whole time in that engine room...staggering power under management..
 
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"In the 1200, the previous owner connected a charging light on the dashboard, which lights up whenever the revs drop below 2200RPM ..."

That light senses the voltage when the bike is turned on (e.g. 12v) and turns off when voltage is above that reference or will come back on when voltage is below the reference. It's not monitoring the gen. output, just the system state.

Personally I like the NOCO range of chargers.
 
I user a SSB lithium 420cca in the Motodd and the spill that comes with the battery say it can be charged using a conventional battery charger so that's what I use.
I just brought a Deka AGM for the SFC. It hasn't started the bike yet, when it arrived it showed 12.9V. It's been slowly draining as I've been sorting out the electrics and setting up the Ignitech ignition. So I attached my normal charger, an Arlec 6amp to bring it back up to charge.
Not sure if I should be using it on the AGM but my way of thinking is the input from the alt/reg wouldn't be much different from any charger.
As the SFC won't be ridden all that often I'm wondering if I should buy a tender type charger for it. Last time I used a Deka was when I rebuilt the Motodd and I built the battery box based on the size of that Deka ETX14 battery. At 220cca it really wasn't up to starting the Motodd on a cold day after not running for a while. Maybe I should have had it on a tender between riding days. so I swapped it for the SSB lithium of the same physical size. Also the weight saving was a benefit considering the trouble I went to reducing the weight of the Motodd. Would have liked to have fitterd a lithium to the SFC but wasn't sure that the dynamo/regulator woiuld be compatable, hence the way too heavy Deka.
6lbs is a heavy lithium batery Dave. The Motodd SSB weights 0.9kg and the one in the GS BM is 1.1kg.
The BM SSB is coming up to 10 years old, never been charged and has never failed to start instantly on the button even after 3 months sitting idle.
So my question is about the Deka agm, using a conventional charger to top it up on occasions, is it ok or should I be using a smart charger?
Dave, how come you have a charging light? I wasn't aware that a charging light was available with a 3 phase reg/rect. The Motodd is using the ZZR250 alternator as oppose to you using an extra charging coil on the original setup.
Would love a charging light.
 
I own at least ten of the Battery Tender brand chargers. I have one AGM battery (Odyssey PC680) going on 15 years old without problems. My RGS battery is 13 years old. A few others are going on 10 years. They will switch to float charge automatically and will charge AGM or Lithium.

Everything I own, cars, trucks, motorcycles and even lawn mowers are on a charger at all times.

The instructions state that the charger will not cause gassing on wet cell lead acid batteries, but I have found this not to be true. If the battery sits for a year with the charger on, the acid will disappear. Not a problem with AGM.
 
motoddrob said:
I user a SSB lithium 420cca in the Motodd and the spill that comes with the battery say it can be charged using a conventional battery charger so that's what I use.
I just brought a Deka AGM for the SFC. It hasn't started the bike yet, when it arrived it showed 12.9V. It's been slowly draining as I've been sorting out the electrics and setting up the Ignitech ignition. So I attached my normal charger, an Arlec 6amp to bring it back up to charge.
Not sure if I should be using it on the AGM but my way of thinking is the input from the alt/reg wouldn't be much different from any charger.
As the SFC won't be ridden all that often I'm wondering if I should buy a tender type charger for it. Last time I used a Deka was when I rebuilt the Motodd and I built the battery box based on the size of that Deka ETX14 battery. At 220cca it really wasn't up to starting the Motodd on a cold day after not running for a while. Maybe I should have had it on a tender between riding days. so I swapped it for the SSB lithium of the same physical size. Also the weight saving was a benefit considering the trouble I went to reducing the weight of the Motodd. Would have liked to have fitterd a lithium to the SFC but wasn't sure that the dynamo/regulator woiuld be compatable, hence the way too heavy Deka.
6lbs is a heavy lithium batery Dave. The Motodd SSB weights 0.9kg and the one in the GS BM is 1.1kg.
The BM SSB is coming up to 10 years old, never been charged and has never failed to start instantly on the button even after 3 months sitting idle.
So my question is about the Deka agm, using a conventional charger to top it up on occasions, is it ok or should I be using a smart charger?
Dave, how come you have a charging light? I wasn't aware that a charging light was available with a 3 phase reg/rect. The Motodd is using the ZZR250 alternator as oppose to you using an extra charging coil on the original setup.
Would love a charging light.
Click to expand...
I think you’re ok to charge an agm on your old arlec charger if it needs it, but just for a little top up. AGMs are pretty good at not losing their charge though so you wouldn’t need to do it often. The worst thing you can do is let it go flat.
 
the Shindengen is 3 phase but only wired as 2 phase (works fine like this) and the 'light' has some electronics in the bezel that simply discriminate between initial voltage and working voltage ... so after 2200 the gen. is providing a voltage over (e.g.) 12v and is an analogy for an ammetter
 
motoddrob said:
I user a SSB lithium 420cca in the Motodd and the spill that comes with the battery say it can be charged using a conventional battery charger so that's what I use.
I just brought a Deka AGM for the SFC. It hasn't started the bike yet, when it arrived it showed 12.9V. It's been slowly draining as I've been sorting out the electrics and setting up the Ignitech ignition. So I attached my normal charger, an Arlec 6amp to bring it back up to charge.
Not sure if I should be using it on the AGM but my way of thinking is the input from the alt/reg wouldn't be much different from any charger.
As the SFC won't be ridden all that often I'm wondering if I should buy a tender type charger for it. Last time I used a Deka was when I rebuilt the Motodd and I built the battery box based on the size of that Deka ETX14 battery. At 220cca it really wasn't up to starting the Motodd on a cold day after not running for a while. Maybe I should have had it on a tender between riding days. so I swapped it for the SSB lithium of the same physical size. Also the weight saving was a benefit considering the trouble I went to reducing the weight of the Motodd. Would have liked to have fitterd a lithium to the SFC but wasn't sure that the dynamo/regulator woiuld be compatable, hence the way too heavy Deka.
6lbs is a heavy lithium batery Dave. The Motodd SSB weights 0.9kg and the one in the GS BM is 1.1kg.
The BM SSB is coming up to 10 years old, never been charged and has never failed to start instantly on the button even after 3 months sitting idle.
So my question is about the Deka agm, using a conventional charger to top it up on occasions, is it ok or should I be using a smart charger?
Dave, how come you have a charging light? I wasn't aware that a charging light was available with a 3 phase reg/rect. The Motodd is using the ZZR250 alternator as oppose to you using an extra charging coil on the original setup.
Would love a charging light.
Click to expand...
I fitted one of these Rob, very simple and effective:
https://www.improvingclassicmotorcycles.com/products.htm
Discussed in this thread last year.
Shajota

Post in thread 'series 2 jota charge lamp'

piranha-bro2 said:
That's pretty clever. I run a different type of LED charge light on ther SFQ (ND alternator). It has about 4 different charge/charging status modes. I mainly wanted it to let me know when the ignition is switched on so as not to leave it on inadvertently. Once running it stays lit pale green. If it flashes red there's no charge at all - worked to let me know my old toothed Gates belt had broken. Haven't seen to overcharge mode and hope I never do.

There's some clever shit in tiny packages out there!
Click to expand...
Not worried about a broken belt on the triple :ROFLMAO:
Overcharging is a PIA with...
  • Wow
  • Like
 
I have used a Noko Genius charger for around 8 years. I've got 4 bikes, all with AGM. 3 are old school, but the 2015 Triumph has a factory fit alarm/immobiliser, and I found that leaving it on maintenance charge with the Noko knocked the battery out after a year. To me the issue is that the constant, but minute, draw on the battery is the cause of premature battery death so when not in use, I have a 3 weekly routine of putting the Noco on for a day, then removing it. All the other bikes have no issue with discharging the batteries, as AGM items hold a charge extremely well for long periods. I have spare batteries for my Guzzi, plus the RGA Sprint, as well as a lithium JLS battery for my Gpz900r: the Noco charger is capable of charging all of them. It's helpful having a wiring harness on the bikes to plug the charger into.
 
Do these chargers cope with connection to several similar-type batteries at the same time? Rather than have 15 chargers for 15 bikes?

And why do fancy smart chargers haver s special setting for lithium if, like Rob, we can apparently charge a lithium with a regular 4-6amp 'stupid' charger?
 
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just with respect to above post .. best not to overthink electrics

any voltage source over the battery voltage will charge it, Lithium batteries charge 'properly' at higher voltages than a lead or AGM would (and have different characteristics)

and I have no expertise in electronic matters, much of it is anecdotal or from experience - beware!
 
SSB lithium batteries say they can be charge with a conventional charger. That's not to say other lithium manufacturers can be.

With the 750, wasn't sure the dynamo output would be enough to keep a lithium happy, hence the heavy AGM.
 
piranha-bro2 said:
Do these chargers cope with connection to several similar-type batteries at the same time?
Click to expand...
No…
Path of least resistance etc etc, even with the same spec battery there’s minor differences so you’ll overcharge one and undercharge another, meanwhile the charger doesn’t know because it isn’t getting individual feedback from each battery separately.
Like most things, it’d be ok for a quick top up but don’t leave multiple batteries on trickle for days and days
 
I thought those Ctec intelligent trickle chargers charged on demand and then cut the charge when the battery was full, plus had a random action to avoid memory. That last bit comes from Cordless folklore, everybody would say if you didn't completely flatten Cordless tool batteries and then recharge them to completely full every time, they would develop MEMORY, and reduce their capacity to that reduced from full MEMORY level. Or is that in the FLAT EARTH realm? Cognizant sentient batteries and chargers, what a world
 
motoddrob said:
SSB lithium batteries say they can be charge with a conventional charger. That's not to say other lithium manufacturers can be.

With the 750, wasn't sure the dynamo output would be enough to keep a lithium happy, hence the heavy AGM.
Click to expand...
The standard regulator if it is fitted should charge at over 14 volts and keep any battery happy. The only possible problem is if you spend lots of time at very low revs, with the generator light lit, with a small battery but I doubt you will use the SFC like that. An ammeter will show at what revs it is pushing amps into the battery.
It is said that "modern" batteries need 15+ volts charging, one of the reasons they need specific chargers. Is there any bike that has a standard regulator that allows such high output?
 
motoddrob said:
SSB lithium batteries say they can be charge with a conventional charger. That's not to say other lithium manufacturers can be.

With the 750, wasn't sure the dynamo output would be enough to keep a lithium happy, hence the heavy AGM.
Click to expand...
Moto Officina put a lithium battery in my SFC.
Suits me fine for the use the bike sees.
Paul
 
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