Cam chain
- Thread starter andychain
- Start date
CLEMTOG
Hero member
OH NO !,
Andy you have now told nick7 that he hasnt got any rollers on his Merc primary chain, he is going to have kippers!,great big flat boneless greasy smoked ones! he will probably listen to you, but I tried to explain it to him a while ago and he wasnt 'avin any of it then,("not avin none of dem on my bike") what I told him was that there are quite a few pairs of gears turning around and bearing on each other with a rolling/sliding motion in his gearbox, a bush chain works just like that, so is only suitable where lubricant is being generously provided for, no good for a rear chain (exposed) and anyway a valve goes up and down a (plain bush) guide at up to 8,500 rpm,in Laverdea triples, and they dont have rollers and hardly any oil at all,
anyway, I like asking questions (about chain) and getting real answers from someone who does actually know,it matters not what shop you go into, chemist, car shop,gunsmith, furniture shop etc, and the reality is that they very rarely know anything about the product they sell other than the price, the exception in my case is two local butchers (when was this killed, where was it raised, what was it fed on,can I use this instead of that etc)
I have tested Andys split roller cam chain to 40,000 miles in the motor fitted to TOG.It has been changed for more of the same, and a spare is on the shelf.It was very hard to tell the difference between the new and the used chain.I am running a triplex primary at present, because I was lucky enough to buy one of the last lengths that Andy could supply, but I have stocked up on triplex sprockets and cutch wheels, for the future, because without the triplex type sprockets, it is not easy to fit Merc duplex, although no doubt someone will commission sprocket sets at some point.I am also still useing 630 rear chain, simply because I have still got two sets of spare sprockets and an un used chain which was given to me, I rivet the links, and Andy has supplied me with spares, eventually I will go to 530.
I will continue to buy from those that willing supply good information that can be relied on.
CLEM
Andy you have now told nick7 that he hasnt got any rollers on his Merc primary chain, he is going to have kippers!,great big flat boneless greasy smoked ones! he will probably listen to you, but I tried to explain it to him a while ago and he wasnt 'avin any of it then,("not avin none of dem on my bike") what I told him was that there are quite a few pairs of gears turning around and bearing on each other with a rolling/sliding motion in his gearbox, a bush chain works just like that, so is only suitable where lubricant is being generously provided for, no good for a rear chain (exposed) and anyway a valve goes up and down a (plain bush) guide at up to 8,500 rpm,in Laverdea triples, and they dont have rollers and hardly any oil at all,
anyway, I like asking questions (about chain) and getting real answers from someone who does actually know,it matters not what shop you go into, chemist, car shop,gunsmith, furniture shop etc, and the reality is that they very rarely know anything about the product they sell other than the price, the exception in my case is two local butchers (when was this killed, where was it raised, what was it fed on,can I use this instead of that etc)
I have tested Andys split roller cam chain to 40,000 miles in the motor fitted to TOG.It has been changed for more of the same, and a spare is on the shelf.It was very hard to tell the difference between the new and the used chain.I am running a triplex primary at present, because I was lucky enough to buy one of the last lengths that Andy could supply, but I have stocked up on triplex sprockets and cutch wheels, for the future, because without the triplex type sprockets, it is not easy to fit Merc duplex, although no doubt someone will commission sprocket sets at some point.I am also still useing 630 rear chain, simply because I have still got two sets of spare sprockets and an un used chain which was given to me, I rivet the links, and Andy has supplied me with spares, eventually I will go to 530.
I will continue to buy from those that willing supply good information that can be relied on.
CLEM
laverdakeith
Hero member
Valve in a guide does have oil Clem, that is what the stem seal does, it controls the amount of oil the valve guide gets, also as the camshaft turns at half engine speed the valve will be operating 4250 times per minute at 8500 rpm..... sorry to be such a pedant but there are so many other baseless "facts" floating around in this thread I felt I had to comment.
Keith.
Keith.
lawrence
Hero member
- Location
- Idaho, USA
What's the problem fitting the merc chain to the triplex sprockets?
andychain
Hero member
Lawrence nothing at all mate however it would impossible to fit to a twin simplex set up.
As far as I can see it should not be a big job to fabricate triple baskets from a triplex platewheel such as I have on my garage floor.
Clem ta for the support but you should get 100,000's from the cam chain
Andy
As far as I can see it should not be a big job to fabricate triple baskets from a triplex platewheel such as I have on my garage floor.
Clem ta for the support but you should get 100,000's from the cam chain
Andy
G
Grant
Guest
I think the answer lies with which grade of Iwis chani Ray used, and which Crispin used.
No point slagging off a whole company on the basis of one, as yet unidentified, chain model.
If we compare apples with apples then we may start to see progress in this one-sided diatribe (again).
No point slagging off a whole company on the basis of one, as yet unidentified, chain model.
If we compare apples with apples then we may start to see progress in this one-sided diatribe (again).
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
I don't see this as one sided Grant - and as an added bonus it gives the lynch mob an opportunity to add their expert opinion.
I observed the chain slack appear on Ray's spaceframe whilst taking photos at Spa. It was well and truly shagged however you care to measure it, despite being supplied as fit for purpose. Like you, I'd be interested to know exactly what was supplied and how it differs from what Crispin is using to such good effect. For the same reason I asked what type of cam chains were being referrring to as industrial and automotive. I'm in the dark on both counts....the IWIS website is of little use without the correct code number.
I observed the chain slack appear on Ray's spaceframe whilst taking photos at Spa. It was well and truly shagged however you care to measure it, despite being supplied as fit for purpose. Like you, I'd be interested to know exactly what was supplied and how it differs from what Crispin is using to such good effect. For the same reason I asked what type of cam chains were being referrring to as industrial and automotive. I'm in the dark on both counts....the IWIS website is of little use without the correct code number.
B
bob
Guest
Grant,Grant said:
You're absolutely right. Iwis do produce high quality automotive chain as well as budget chain and there is certainly no intention on my part to run down their products.
I suspect the chain that Ray had been supplied with is a different product to the chain Crispin has . The chain fitted to Ray's spaceframe didn't even look like a motorcycle chain.
It costs a great deal of money to put a bike on the grid at Spa and it's vital to have a good quality chain which is man enough for the job. Hopefully Andy can shed some light on the subject so that folks can make an informed decision on which grade of chain to select. Offering to send people pics of sagging Regina chain isn't a very objective way to deal with a specific issue raised about an Iwis product.
Chains are a safety critical component on a motorcycle and I think it's important to have detailed manufacturers data about specific product types rather than subjective opinions and vague third party referals .
XBCoupeJota
Full member
- Location
- Race Central - Sydney
bob said:
Hey Bob,
I agree and as I said in my post the exercise I did with the sagging chains was pointless and a waste of my time, I did it out of pure curiosity. Ray told me the IWIS chain had stretched significantly and this is a real indication of a shagged chain no dispute. It would be interesting to know the specs on that chain, I assumed Ray got it from Andy but sounds like it was sourced elsewhere?
Cheers Crispin
Tom Eatman
Hero member
The IWIS industrial chain has slightly thinner plates and has a darker color than the bike chains. Many years ago I had installed an IWIS cam chain in my Jota. I had just rebuilt the engine and each time I had the cover off of the engine to retorque the head I noticed the chain was stretching drastically. I talked to the chain supplier who then talked with IWIS who explained the differences. Supplier gave me the correct IWIS chain and my chain stretching problems disappeared.
Ray had the darker IWIS chain on his Spaceframe in Spa. One of his crew asked me about this and after seeing it all I said was "bad idea to use it". With only thirty or forty minutes between practice sessions there were enough other things to worry about than a dodgy chain. I think after the first practice the chain went into the trash and the lesson was learned. There are differences so use the proper chain for the job.
Tom
Ray had the darker IWIS chain on his Spaceframe in Spa. One of his crew asked me about this and after seeing it all I said was "bad idea to use it". With only thirty or forty minutes between practice sessions there were enough other things to worry about than a dodgy chain. I think after the first practice the chain went into the trash and the lesson was learned. There are differences so use the proper chain for the job.
Tom
andychain
Hero member
On 10B-1 or 5/8 x 3/8 iwis make 3 versions, 1) M106SL with a high quality chromised pin (2) A nickel plated version of 1 and (3) A Megalife product which is being marketed as motorcycle chain but in my, and iwis opinion, is not suitable for bikes.
I dont think I sold Ray a chain but I would suspect it is the Megalife and this is a product that I bluntly refuse to sell.
iwis also did buy a company called Eurochain, it has an (e) on the plate, again I will not sell this although I believe there is a lot out there and it has the iwis logo on the box.
To complicate the matter further iwis has also purchased the Elite brand, yet another product that I will only sell to those wanting a budget product and even then I point out that it is not a patch on the M106SL.
I would imagine the problem chain falls into one of the the 3 catagories above but as I have not seen the offending product I dont know.
Andy
PS The Megalife visually looks like the nickel plated M106SL so it is easy for even the keenest eye to miss the subtle differences.
I dont think I sold Ray a chain but I would suspect it is the Megalife and this is a product that I bluntly refuse to sell.
iwis also did buy a company called Eurochain, it has an (e) on the plate, again I will not sell this although I believe there is a lot out there and it has the iwis logo on the box.
To complicate the matter further iwis has also purchased the Elite brand, yet another product that I will only sell to those wanting a budget product and even then I point out that it is not a patch on the M106SL.
I would imagine the problem chain falls into one of the the 3 catagories above but as I have not seen the offending product I dont know.
Andy
PS The Megalife visually looks like the nickel plated M106SL so it is easy for even the keenest eye to miss the subtle differences.
I saw the chain in question, I laid it on the smooth concrete floor. The free play in each and every link was astounding. Thats free play in the direction of rotation, not sideways. I dont believe it's possible that its the same chain used by Oz Laverda.
Rob
Rob
andychain
Hero member
Tom
I was the MD of iwis in UK until I retired 11 years ago, having worked for them for 30 years.
I would expect I had a hand in your tale above.
The iwis cam chain also has slightly wider plates which makes it a bugger to do cam chains with cranklinks, which are need on some Jags, Porsche and Lotus engines.
Andy
I was the MD of iwis in UK until I retired 11 years ago, having worked for them for 30 years.
I would expect I had a hand in your tale above.
The iwis cam chain also has slightly wider plates which makes it a bugger to do cam chains with cranklinks, which are need on some Jags, Porsche and Lotus engines.
Andy
B
bob
Guest
XBCoupeJota said:
Hi Crispin,
Just to clear up any understanding ,when I referred to the pics of sagging chains, I wasn't referring to your pics! I was referring to Andy's offer of sending out the pics of a sagging Regina chain to anyone who was interested in seeing them.
Ray told me he purchased the chain from Andy a few weeks ago just prior to taking the bike to Spa and something which concerned us was the lack of a rivet link which Ray was told was unavailable for that model of chain.
It seemed odd to me that a chain supplied for a 1200cc motorcycle doesn't have a rivet link option. Just out of curiosity do you use a rivet link on your Iwis chain? If you do then perhaps we are talking about two different species of chain, which would start to explain these anomalies. If you don't use a rivet link then you should !
Bob
laverdakeith
Hero member
andychain said:
Andy,
Why would a cam drive that requires a cranked link ever make it off the drawing board? Surely these are non prefered aplications? I have worked on older Jaguar and Porsche engines and to the best of my memory they allways use an equall number of links.
Keith.
CLEMTOG
Hero member
realy getting picky now then Keith, how about this..
at 8,500 rpm the camshaft revolves at 4,250 rpm, i.e half crankshaft speed, but for every 360 degrees revolution of the cam the valve stem moves twice, once to open it, and once to close it, so back up to 8,500 movements per 8,500 revolutions of the crank.
whatcha rekon? oh alright then I 'll have another pint of real strong Kentish bitter.
CLEM
at 8,500 rpm the camshaft revolves at 4,250 rpm, i.e half crankshaft speed, but for every 360 degrees revolution of the cam the valve stem moves twice, once to open it, and once to close it, so back up to 8,500 movements per 8,500 revolutions of the crank.
whatcha rekon? oh alright then I 'll have another pint of real strong Kentish bitter.
CLEM
andychain
Hero member
On some race engines for the mentioned engines they have differing block heights meaning that they need a crank. You are right that it is not a good idea but when race engines are regularly stripped down and components replaced life is not a priority.
On the point of rivet links, of course they are available. I dont like them due to the fact that they are also known as soft links. The ends are soft for rivetting. The force needed to destroy the press fit of the plate and pin would murder a soft rivet head. I always advise reusing a carefully removed link from a chain as it is hardened over the total pin.
There is no reason not to use a spring clip as long as it is a good design, which unfortunately the majority are not. Even the spring clips from Regina are badly designed and I always replace the item with one from iwis. See me at a show and I will prove the point. Even scrutineers will accept a lock wired spring clip.
Anybody wanting soft links for the iwis M106SL please contact me.
Love this place
Andy
On the point of rivet links, of course they are available. I dont like them due to the fact that they are also known as soft links. The ends are soft for rivetting. The force needed to destroy the press fit of the plate and pin would murder a soft rivet head. I always advise reusing a carefully removed link from a chain as it is hardened over the total pin.
There is no reason not to use a spring clip as long as it is a good design, which unfortunately the majority are not. Even the spring clips from Regina are badly designed and I always replace the item with one from iwis. See me at a show and I will prove the point. Even scrutineers will accept a lock wired spring clip.
Anybody wanting soft links for the iwis M106SL please contact me.
Love this place
Andy
XBCoupeJota
Full member
- Location
- Race Central - Sydney
bob said:Ray told me he purchased the chain from Andy a few weeks ago just prior to taking the bike to Spa and something which concerned us was the lack of a rivet link which Ray was told was unavailable for that model of chain.
It seemed odd to me that a chain supplied for a 1200cc motorcycle doesn't have a rivet link option. Just out of curiosity do you use a rivet link on your Iwis chain? If you do then perhaps we are talking about two different species of chain, which would start to explain these anomalies. If you don't then you should !
Bob
Hi Bob,
I specifically looked for a race chain option with no o-rings and a split link strong enough for a 1200 so I could take the chain off after each race and clean it etc, I don't like rivet chains, pain in the arse when you have to work on, or change engines the night before race day. The IWIS chain option fitted the bill and i'm happy enough to rely on the clip link ... call me a fool that's cool 8)
It's a pity the chain went in the bin and not back to the supplier to comment on. The mystery continues on what Ray was supplied ... Andy?
Cheers Crispin
B
bob
Guest
Crispin, I certainly wouldn't call you a fool for using a split link, plenty of people, myself included race bikes with a split link in the chain due to the convenience. In my defence I suspect my bike is putting out considerably less BHP than yours! Now that I've raced it a few times I'm happy I can cover all gearing options that I might require with one length of chain and will put a permanent link in and do away with the split link.
I think the general rule of thumb is that at 80bhp or over the chain manufacturers will recommend a rivet link.