Cannot select neutral with motor running – RGS

Chappo

Chappo

Senior member
Location
Lake Macquarie NSW
Hello everybody, and a Happy New Year.

Recently, I removed my clutch, to replace a broken spring.

20221009_113556.jpg

Prior to this, I could not find neutral unless I was moving, I had to make sure I found neutral before coming to a stop. Now, I cannot find neutral without turning off the motor.

Another change is the clutch rattle I had before has pretty much disappeared. Before, it rattled like blazes when idling in neutral, when I pulled the clutch lever in, it quietened down. The clutch spring bolts were not very tight. Pretty much, just nipped up.

I tightened the clutch bolts more when putting it back together. I did not use a torque wrench, just tightened them up to what felt correct. I think this is why my clutch rattle disappeared, and I suspect why I now can’t find neutral easy.

I’d rather not have the clutch rattle, and learn to live with not finding neutral easy, but I would prefer both. Anyone got any clues as how to fix it?
It is a bit notchy on the downshift, especially with the lower gears, from top to fourth is OK, but third to second is a bit hard.

I searched other posts and found this thread, where Chris mucked about with the neutral selector switch and fixed his problem with selecting 1st and neutral. Would it be worth me taking a look at this?

120 Jota not engaging 1st and neutral

Following on from the gear change thread posted earlier I had similar issues with my recently purchased 120 Jota, would not down select first gear and neutral was hit and miss. Other gears would select without issue which indicated that the selector mechanism was working properly which only left...
laverdaforum.com laverdaforum.com

Thanks all.
 
Agree with Chris. First suggestion - bleed the clutch line to make sure you haven't got air in there. It's worth checking that the slave cylinder piston moves freely in the cover too (and also not leaking hydraulic fluid). Second suggestion - did you remove the clutch plates? If so, did you put them back in the same order? And how badly worn were the splines in the clutch drum?
I'm assuming you haven't changed the master cylinder for one with a smaller piston (gives a lighter action but increases probability of clutch not fully disengaging due to reduced lift)
 
Chris Pritt reconds there is a right way and a wrong way the plates can go in, I forget the details but he is a helpful kinda Club President.
 
Thanks chaps. I did not change the order of the clutch plates. Attached is a picture of the clutch drum splines.
The clutch MC is original. I will check out the slave cylinder. I have a spare seal, just got to find it. I bought two, from Wolfgang, some years back, when it was leaking.

20220913_161658.jpg
 
Hi Chappo, what is the history of your machine? RGS has the smoothest gearbox of all lavs, should work flawlessly. Something is very wrong. Overhaul the hydraulics first, pay careful attention to the rod and ball bearings, then if no joy, you will have to delve deeper. Assume square section actuating bar was in good shape where the rod presses on it?
 
Just had a chat with Chris, 2 things. It's either the neutral switch OR the clutch plates are stampings and have a blunt edge and a sharp edge and if you keep the sharp edges pointed either in or out all the same it allows the clutch to move more freely. I guess blunt edge pointed-in would be better as that's where the hard pull happens. Anyway, it's a good test of his Theory so let us know if this helps.
 
martymoose said:
Hi Chappo, what is the history of your machine? RGS has the smoothest gearbox of all lavs, should work flawlessly. Something is very wrong. Overhaul the hydraulics first, pay careful attention to the rod and ball bearings, then if no joy, you will have to delve deeper. Assume square section actuating bar was in good shape where the rod presses on it?
Click to expand...
Vince said:
Just had a chat with Chris, 2 things. It's either the neutral switch OR the clutch plates are stampings and have a blunt edge and a sharp edge and if you keep the sharp edges pointed either in or out all the same it allows the clutch to move more freely. I guess blunt edge pointed-in would be better as that's where the hard pull happens. Anyway, it's a good test of his Theory so let us know if this helps.
Click to expand...

Hi Marty, I've owned the bike since November '91. The clutch was slipping when I bought it, and I took it to a bloke who ran a motorbike repair place specialising in Italian bikes, he was a Ducati aficionado, apparently. He changed the clutch plates, that's when the not being able to put it into neutral unless rolling started. I did go back and tell him, he said something like "Just like the Ducatis." It was apparent to me he was not going to try and fix it, so I learnt to live with it.

No major work has been done, just a head gasket, valve shims, new cam chains, primary chains, cush rubbers, stuff like that.

I will give the hydraulics a once over. I have replaced the slave cylinder seal twice since I have owned it, and the MC seals once. The actuating bar looked okay, wasn't well worn, or out of shape.

Thanks for that Vince, I checked out the clutch plates, but did not re-arrange them, and they went back in the same way they came out. I did measure the clutch springs, they were within tolerance, 73mm springs to mind? Ha, no pun intended.

I will report back what I find with the hydraulics.
 
Refresh my memory, did I swap a couple of bottles of Burban for some 280mm brake discs with you a very long time ago?
 
Everything looked okay with the master and slave cylinder. I bled the system, but no air bubbles were apparent.
The rod and ball looked okay as well. I couldn’t get the ball out, but I spied it down the hole, and it looked to be okay.

There is another change in behaviour. Before, when I would start the bike and put it into gear, it would lurch forward and stall, presumably because the clutch plates were sticking. It would do this once, maybe twice, depending how long it had been sitting. Now, it does this a half dozen times, or more, and it is much more violent. It has only been a week since I last rode it. Once it is in gear, and running, cannot get it back to neutral, no way, no how. Got to shut it down to do that.

Here is the witness mark of the lurching forward.
20230102_173415.jpg

Next step, I suppose, is to check out the neutral switch, and re-adjust the primary chains, as suggested by MotoV. I will look at the adjusting the chains first, because no oil needs to be dumped to adjust the chains.
 
Go though the whole thing from handlebar lever to clutch plates Check everything, you could even go to a cable clutch whilst you're at it, a very useful mod.
In no way should the tightening of the clutch springs bolts influence clutch function. They should be nice and tight.
Primary tension does have an influence but not that much.
Check the needle rollers in the clutch.
File out the burrs in that clutch drum. Get every thing as it should be.
Look for a reason for that spring breaking, it very likely isn't just old age.


And don't have a fixation on finding neutral at a standstill, that's the icing on the cake when all else is well, sometimes.

Paul
 
Chappo said:
Everything looked okay with the master and slave cylinder. I bled the system, but no air bubbles were apparent.
The rod and ball looked okay as well. I couldn’t get the ball out, but I spied it down the hole, and it looked to be okay.

There is another change in behaviour. Before, when I would start the bike and put it into gear, it would lurch forward and stall, presumably because the clutch plates were sticking. It would do this once, maybe twice, depending how long it had been sitting. Now, it does this a half dozen times, or more, and it is much more violent. It has only been a week since I last rode it. Once it is in gear, and running, cannot get it back to neutral, no way, no how. Got to shut it down to do that.

Here is the witness mark of the lurching forward.
View attachment 68908

Next step, I suppose, is to check out the neutral switch, and re-adjust the primary chains, as suggested by MotoV. I will look at the adjusting the chains first, because no oil needs to be dumped to adjust the chains.
Click to expand...
Why couldn't you remove the ball? If it is partially stuck then that may answer your problem.
Andy
 
Chappo said:
Thanks chaps. I did not change the order of the clutch plates. Attached is a picture of the clutch drum splines.
The clutch MC is original. I will check out the slave cylinder. I have a spare seal, just got to find it. I bought two, from Wolfgang, some years back, when it was leaking.

View attachment 68904
Click to expand...
This i would rectify as priority, far from what i would reinstall as is, hoping to rectify any dragging clutch multiple issues, my un-serated two bob 2 p worth...gst is 10% out here....j
 
KERMIT1200 said:
Why couldn't you remove the ball? If it is partially stuck then that may answer your problem.
Click to expand...
I put a blob of grease on the rod, hoping it would glue the ball to the end and draw it out. I tried a few times, but no go.

iis_iis said:
This i would rectify as priority, far from what i would reinstall as is, hoping to rectify any dragging clutch multiple issues, my un-serated two bob 2 p worth...gst is 10% out here....j
Click to expand...
Looks like I am dismantling again. Got to file those grooves then?
 
Saw-toothed is BAD, so are DRUGS. BAD that is, South Park impersonation. If your going that far check the sharp edges on the plate orientation and count them and check their order of stacking. People do odd stuff when it comes to leaving out the RGS anti-Rattle bits. There is a specific order to removing THAT and adding another plate, not sure about that last comment so check with the Brains Trust on THAT. Don't just assume that Ducati bloke did it right. There has to be a reason it's doing what it's doing. I lucked out with impossible to get neutral on my Atlas, it just needed a lot less lever Freeplay. It same on my 3c, I keep hearing that extended lower clutch arms make it impossible to get neutral but mine does easily.
 
When you open the whole assembly, please make some photos of
a) the slave cylinder with the ball
b) the measurements of the rod lengths
c) the ball

If it's not that assembly, your master cylinder might not pump enough. What master do you have - original or reduced size (like a PS 13 f.e.)?
 
As mentioned earlier file off the burrs from the drum and if you have a fine cut thin file give the faces a slight rub.
Clean the clutch plates to get rid of all the gummy oil deposits and reassemble the plates, check to see if the plates have a radius'd edge on one side or not. If the plates do have a radius'd edge on one side and not the other ( a result of them being stamped out on a press ) assemble so all the radius'd edges face the clutch drum.
Check the square bit of Key steel that the push rod pushes against, I had an instance on my SFC where the rod pierced its way through the key steel.
Check also that the pressure plate moves freely when operating the clutch, I've found that the plate can be fitted in either of 2 ways 180 deg apart.
One way, the correct way it will open and close easily. If turned 180 deg it may become notchy on the spline, seen this on a few Lav's. Find the best position.
I've also had the problem of the neutral selector switch being screwed in to far causing the plunger on it to flatten off and jam into the selector cam, the switch should have a nice radius on the plunger to allow it to retract into the body as the cam spins around without jamming the cam.
the depth of the neutral switch is set by washers between the switch and gearbox housing, adjust so the neutral light only just comes on when neutral is selected.
Good luck.

For interest I have fitted 12 mm bore modified master cylinders too my bikes for a lighter clutch lever.
13 mm would be better than 12 mm.

Chris
 
Last edited:
Thanks all.

As I said before, the MC is standard. It is a bog standard RGS, the only modification is the non-standard exhaust.

I had the clutch rattle, and the thing with not be able to select neutral while stationary. Most times, I could get neutral by rocking it forward while sitting on it, I didn't need to be actually rolling forward, just some forward momentum was needed.

Prior to the spring breaking, shifting down got difficult. It is still a bit hard to downshift. I suppose whatever is causing the difficult downshift is what broke the spring.

I have changed two things. I have replaced the broken spring and the clutch bolt tension.

Now, I can't find neutral without turning off the motor, and the clutch sticks like a bastard. I'm using the same brand 20w 50 oil I've always used.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top