Ceriani vs Marzocchi a washer question

My '78 1200 has Ceriani forks and triple clamps, while my '78 Jota has the Marzocchi fork and triple clamp. Should the steering stem nut on the 1200 have a washer in place? I know they use a different setup/approach as to how they secure the steering stem into the top triple clamp, so I was wondering if there should be a washer on the 1200. See the photos.
 

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Which is to say, no, the 1200 (Ceriani) does NOT need a washer under the top nut; it seats on the adjustment nut below the triple clamp (big hole, for sleeved nut). The Marzo top nut seats on the top face of the triple clamp (small hole, for stem only).
 
interesting diskussion, I would prefer a washer so the nut will not scrash the clamp surface- but ????
 
Thing is, the hex of the Ceriani nut does not neccesarily need to seat on the top yoke, nor should the yoke be drawn down by the nut. The sleeve nut bottoms on the sleeve that locates the steering stem in the upper bearing once the bearing is adjusted. The position of the yoke on the sleeve nut is actually dictated by non-parallelism of stanchions and steering stem, at least on triples and SF2/3. The difference is only 1.5°, but ideally there is only a single location for the top yoke where it does not induce stress in either the yoke clamps or the stanchions and all components simply slide together without applying any force (and ideally firmly clamping the headlight support tubes at the same time). Granted, the stresses may be minimal, but from an engineering POV they should be avoided. Although the set-up may seem complicated, it is engineering excellence and actually quite simple geometry.

When assembling, the yoke should not be pushed down onto the steering stem and stanchions. The steering stem is usually quite a bit off-centre in the yoke bore, making it quite difficult at times to start the nut on the thread. Rather, the stanchions should be inserted from below into the top yoke which is loosely fitted to the central sleeve nut. A sweet spot will materialise where all fits smoothly (provided there is no distortion to deal with).

I've found all manner of shimming and spacing attempts in this area, much the same as between RH fork slider and speedo drive housing. All a matter of not understanding engineering principles.

The Marzocchi system is far less sophisticated, the top nut simply jams the yoke onto the bearing adjusting nut, requires no further explanation.

piet
 
interesting diskussion, I would prefer a washer so the nut will not scrash the clamp surface- but ????
Piet just answered more technically than me!!!

There's no thread to tighten the washer with - the only way you could put pressure on the washer to stop it rattling around is to loosen the lower triple clamp pinch bolts and, with the top pinch bolts tight, push the forks through the lower clamps until the top clamp slides up that threaded sleeve and somehow puts pressure on the washer!! And then try and tighten everything up before gravity tries to drop it all back down again ... wrong wrong wrong.
 
Do the top nuts jam the bottom nut like a lock nut in either case? Years back one of the locals on a fresh reso had his steering slowly self tighten on a ride. Luckily I had a 250mm long shifter that was big enough to back it off so he could steer enough to get his bike home. Never seen it before or since. He was lucky to not crash it. BTW you might think just the bottom nut does all the steering free play adjustment but on my 3c tightening the top nut changes the free play as well so in my case both nuts change this so it's tricky to get this right. I have 2 tapered rollers though I guess one tapered and a top roller make adjustment easier to do.
 
Yes Quentin, but they didn't have a washer either! Just checked the parts book... ;)

piet
That just went without saying, Piet. Same sys ... just no offset.

Vince, any double threaded locking assembly will tighten when the locking nut is tightened. Same deal in a bicycle axle cone setup. Doesn't make any diff if it's two tapers or one taper and a ball cartridge (a la most Laverdas). Always essential to adjust, lock, check, readjust ... until it's nice and free moving without play once locked up - surprising how far you need to back off the lower adjusting nut to achieve this.
 
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