Fork cartridge info wanted

[Dellortoman]

Yeah, I figured you'd be across the technicalities Chris. I made the comment as much for the benefit of others who may have been considering the emulator modification.

I had greater success with the gold valve emulators in my Ducati forks than in the Laverda. As you say, that could have been because of the superior frame geometry of the Ducati! 

Actually, I suspect the real reason is that the Duc's suspension was so harsh to begin with that it wasn't hard to improve on. It must have been designed for smooth auto-strada type roads, rather than the back country roads with potholes sticking up like we have here. The original suspension was so stiff that I used to be able to ride across a manhole cover and read the maker's name through my arse - as a blind person reads braille.

I also put some progressive springs in the Duc and fitted YSS ajustable rear shocks at the same time which would have improved overall comfort and roadholding - back wheel doesn't jump off the road over bumps any more! So I'm not sure how much of the handling improvement is down to the emulators and how much is attributable to the other improvements.

With the Jota, it wasn't as uncomfortable to ride in the first place, so any improvement would have been more marginal. Also, I only put in emulators and used the original springs, which are quite stiff. In addition, I left the Koni Shocks on the back, which are sort of OK but nothing to rave about. When I first road tested it, the front end was as stiff than the original Marzo damping. Some lighter oil and a backing off the emulator valve springs by one turn has made it more compliant. It's better now than the original damping set-up, but I reckon it could still find some more improvement with a bit of tweaking. I might also have a go at dialling back the damping on the Konis one day when I can be bothered making a spring compressor (they're the old type that you have to remove the springs and push in the damping rod in to adjust).

Cheers,
Cam

 

[hochkoenig]

Chris, those Race-Tech emulators are adjustable in a number of ways. You can make the forks more compliant by reducing the oil viscosity, backing off the valve spring pre-load (high speed damping), or by enlarging the bleed holes in the valve plate (low speed damping). It's a bit late now as you've got rid of your Jota, but they may simply have needed a bit of fine tuning.

Cheers,
Cam

As far as I can see, you have to take out the Gold Valve of the Fork to adjust them...
Is there a dealer in europe for them?

 

[Tippie]

Something to keep in mind about the emulators is that they affect only compression damping. This is originally regulated purely by the number and size of the tiny holes in the damper rods. What Cam is saying about adjusting out the harshness by backing off the springs in the emulators/lighter oil etc is the only way to alter it. Adjusting the emulator is a breeze, remove the spring and use a grabbing tool (from the local car-tool joint) to lift out the emulator.
Rebound damping is still controlled by the one-way valve unit that fits into the bottom of the forkleg. The flapper-valve on these does wear and I have replaced them twice on my bike as they were worn out against the damper rod.
For me the problem is that the friction (stiction) between the leg and slider gives "compression damping" which you are chasing your tail trying to tune out.
This is the reason all modern forks (since the 80s) have a teflon type insert in the leg and slider. And the reason BMW "invented" a mate of ours?system to take the load off that area.
Lee

 

[phil37]

Thanks Silvo for that list - some of those later stanchions must have adjustable cartridges - I plan to put some Slick50 (Teflon) additive in my forks to help reduce stiction - checked the idea out and a few have done it. - regards - Phil

 

[silvo]

Slick 50. That's showing a bit of lateral thought.

There's always a bit of that on here. I notice she's a pretty dead party over in the classic Ducati rooms. Just an old bag, a couple of blokes who are still looking for their first root and a few nerdy blokes reading the Financial Review.

On mine I'm going to at least get a slot machined in for a top bush. I'll use a Kwaka one. The bottom reeks of all sorts of problems so maybe combining the two methods will compensate for not doing the bottom.

Good luck Phil.

Cheers

 

[phil37]

Hi Silvo - Did a bit of testing for "Slick50" on the Motodd dyno - the rep poured the final contents of the plastic bottle (where all the good stuff is) into a glass jar - but dropped the jar and it smashed on the workshop floor. For ages - that floor was so slippery - gave me the idea for the forks - cheap and no machining if it works - regards - Phil

 

[Laverdalothar]

Have it even in most of my engines and can only report good things about it (Slick50 I mean...). Less effect the more modern an engine is, more the older the concept is. Seems to having to do with modern engines being already designed for less friction - don't know...

 

[hochkoenig]

Whats about slippering clutches?

 

[chrisk]

I used Nulon in my triples with no clutch slipping problems. Maybe I was just lucky?

 

[motoddrob]

I've been using Slick50 in all my bikes since the mid 80s, never had a clutch slip problem due to using it, can't say the same for fully Syn oil.

 

[mcnicol]

that floor was so slippery - gave me the idea for the forks - cheap and no machining if it works

Phil, does anyone do titanium nitride coatings in Pommyland? Many of the top MX riders have their entire stanchions/slider internals coated to reduce stiction. Slick 50 would be cheaper, though, my local low friction place charges about $500 to do it.

Ken

 

[laverdakeith]

Been using a product called Activ8 in forks with good results for a number of years, also works well on carb slides.


    Keith

 

[phil37]

Hi Ken - Don't know about the titanium Nitride - wouldn't dream of spending $500 on a set of forks - Regards - Phil

 

[silvo]

He's a response I got from one of the Ducati sites.

[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]"i fitted sliding bushings to a 38 mm Marzocchi to eliminate stick slip .
honed the inside of the bottom slider to 39 mm and machined room for the top bushing .

i used Kayaba parts from a Yam and Kawa
fork tubes are Yam FZ 600 and have some internal valving for compression
damping . i made up aluminum damperrods out of 6061 alu and had them
hard anodized

my brother did the same thing and fitted a cartridge from a Honda 600"
[/size][/size][/size][/size]

I've been asking the same question on the Bevel Heaven site and I've just noticed my post was edited by the owner Steve. You pricks don't realise how lucky you are. All I said was some weak slightly derogatory comment about this site needing to be woken up. Mind you what I've just posted might really piss him off.

Have a look and a laugh. I'll give my reply two hours life.

http://forum.bevelheaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=4135

 

[Vince]

Chris I probably should have warned you,he is extremely anal and likes to carry a big stick.Anything approaching having a bit of fun is stamped out immediately.Thats not the worst site I have seen,the old Mica peak Husky site completely evacuated after the Religious American nut job who owned it pull rank.I wounder how happy he is now on a site with ZERO posting.We have it so good here,no aggressive keyboard hero's threatening crap and no heavy handed moderating.Thats why its the happiness site on the net,but not in a gay way,although theres nothing wrong with that.Time to go I think.

 

[silvo]

I'm not surprised Vince. He's edited me before, years ago, when I posted an alternative for parts to his own shop. You gotta wonder haven't you about people who try to control the content of an enthusiasts forum and run a business.

I would have thought these two things are mutually exclusive and content reflected a collective consciousness of the members first. Take Piet, Red and Keith. They're on here because they love Laverdas first and work with them second. Has the Bevel Heaven guy ever developed, improved or figured out how to do something cheaper or better. Nup, you only get that sort of info in exchange for money and obedience.

As you imply, it take all kinds and they're all on here.............. with the occasional handbag fight.

 

[silvo]

More info - With thanks to Eldert from the Ducati MSN forum.

"i use Marzocchi top caps , i had to shorten the Yam forks and cut Marzocchi treads in them on the lathe . for the aluminum demperrods i used the Kayaba pistonring . i found a guy that has a shop that specialises in honing , he has a big machine that goes up and down by itself . he made a jig to hold down the bottomsliders and mounted that to the machinebed . al he has to do is give the mandrel a few clicks so it expands and there goes the machine again . the bottom slide bushing you can get from Yahaha . for the top one Kawasaki is the supplyer

for the cartride i think i was from a Honda 600 from around 95/96
( my brother is on vacation , cant ask him )
but there are plenty more cartridges that should fit

we did a lot of 35 mm forks like this . here is a picture of a internal valve of a 35 mm Showa fork from a Yam RD 350 . the other picture is of a damperrod i made to mate a Ceriani bottom slider to a Honda NSR 125 fork tube"

 

[Davo]

I'm not surprised Vince. He's edited me before, years ago, when I posted an alternative for parts to his own shop. You gotta wonder haven't you about people who try to control the content of an enthusiasts forum and run a business.

I would have thought these two things are mutually exclusive and content reflected a collective consciousness of the members first. Take Piet, Red and Keith. They're on here because they love Laverdas first and work with them second. Has the Bevel Heaven guy ever developed, improved or figured out how to do something cheaper or better. Nup, you only get that sort of info in exchange for money and obedience.

As you imply, it take all kinds and they're all on here.............. with the occasional handbag fight.

The difference being he runs a shop with a forum attached as part of his commercial enterprise, not as a social service for the good of mankind. Bit impolite to go onto his forum and tell folk they can buy stuff cheaper elsewhere.

 

[silvo]

I know where your coming from but I can't totally agree.

We're talking about the web here, not his mythical workshop or his loungeroom. Different rules apply there. A forum is a public space. It's free to enter and it's free to leave. If it's run as an adjunct to a business then the same rules apply as above. If he keeps expelling more people then he's expelling his potential business. People notice and tell other people.

Lets separate the business and the forum for a moment. He sells Ducati parts and we discuss Ducatis. Because he owns the forum does this mean he has ownership of all interlectual discussion about Ducati as well? This sounds familiar to Brave New World and 1984's Big Brother to me.

Aside from the this. Just hypothetically, do mean that if Red or Peit or Keith had the ability to assert their own rules and standards to protect their business on the Laverda Forum, you'd put up with that? I doubt it. Do any of us really want to be told how to behave by a motorcycle shop while we discuss our motorbikes. Bit silly really.

If I get expelled then I've done my duty.

Cheers

 

[sfc1000uk]

with all due respect, bollocks.

He's providing the forum, he's paying for it, he sets the rules and he's liable for anything posted on his forum.

You don't like his rules, find a different forum or start your own. Simple as.

Owning the forum doesn't give him ownership of all discussion about ducrappis but it does give him ownership of all the discussion on his forum.

Anyway, he's a ducrappi owner so he's bound to be an arsehole