Fork Me

Great video (despite the drunk drone pilot). I love alternative front ends. It would be interesting to have it compared with a fork equipped bike. It seems that there are many more fairly easily altered variables with these front ends which can be both a benefit and a challenge. Regardless, every different type seems to give a very different feel to conventional and take time to get used to, so often the aim is to give a similar feel. Ron Haslam got plenty of pole positions on the ELF Honda GP bike iirc, but often faded after a few laps, but it definitely was in the mix. 
I like your engineering standpoints Cam, a good part of the discussion.
 
GregT, you may know more about this, but on reading the Britten book it was clear that 'he' was adamant he was not going with conventional forks, even though Rob Holden never came to terms with the 'girder' system that was used. FWIR it was turn-in that noone liked using that front end.

I personally think the brilliant system invented by the Qasar guy (Phil, you've mentioned him a few times when my memory fails!) and stolen by BMW is the simplest and best front end design I've yet seen - strong and offering so much adjustability; just perfect in its simplicity.
 
helicopterjim said:
Have you ever seen bear shit? The word "dump" is very appropriate. Usually about 10 pounds and full of junk like bits of tin can and rubber boot.

Jim
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So some poor bugga after along hike through the woods settles down for a gourmet can of beans for dinner and a bear pounces on him and eats him boots and all. fuck. :o
 
Thanks for that video. While it's great that people try these ideas out, although it doesn't necessarily mean they're all good ideas. Interesting suspension though. Looks like the single shock absorber has link rods going through the fork legs to the swinging arm. One of the issues with trailing link front ends is the propensity for excessive dive when the front brake is applied. I notice that they used a floating caliper design with a parallelogram type link rod to counter the effect.
 
Anyone remember that Ozzie built Ducato based Special with the funny frontend displayed at one of the Barrys at Eastern Creek, it got rave reviews and was never seen again. There is supposed to be one of those name starts with W, Tom Cruise has one, costs huge money, running in Sydney and appears occasionally on The Old Rd. I guess in this climate it's hard to sell odd bikes that cost a bomb.
https://blog.brocksperformance.com/functional-not-funny-building-a-better-front-end/
 
The Tom Cruise thing starts with V not W
https://newatlas.com/the-vyrus-987-c3-4vv-the-worlds-most-powerful-production-motorcycle/13975/#:~:text=The%20Vyrus%20987%20C3%204V%3A%20the%20world's%20most%20powerful%20production%20motorcycle,-By%20New%20Atlas&text=The%20hub%2Dcentre%2Dsteered%20Vyrus,EUR%2065%2C000%20(US%2491%2C700).
 
I was wrong, it's catching on.
https://totallyradchoppers.com/strange-build/?fbclid=IwAR2iqLLSacsi4ny6jbGRGEYZ_dCXKs9wxy8Fsw1lfE4Iw2ccDWSpWbQe7Ms
 
Vince, that Vyrus thing and the chopper look to have hit every branch of the ugly tree on the way down...


I?m very happy with my Marzos and Cerianis and figure that for a bloke with my displayed riding skills, they are more than sufficient.  I am also not too enamoured with the modern day single sided swing arms - most likely the dinosaur inside of me..
 
Yogi as stated earlier I am not so keen on the Insectoid style of modern bikes, but I was very interested in the alternate frontend wars a couple of decades back reading all the Cathcart tests he did. But including that very mainstream  Yamaha GTS, it just hasn't caught on even when it wins races or handles better. We apparently are just too conservative a market to spend on different looking stuff
 
Piranha Brother 2 said:
GregT, you may know more about this, but on reading the Britten book it was clear that 'he' was adamant he was not going with conventional forks, even though Rob Holden never came to terms with the 'girder' system that was used. FWIR it was turn-in that noone liked using that front end.

I personally think the brilliant system invented by the Qasar guy (Phil, you've mentioned him a few times when my memory fails!) and stolen by BMW is the simplest and best front end design I've yet seen - strong and offering so much adjustability; just perfect in its simplicity.
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I've actually avoided reading this thread - but too late now, lol.
The long standing problem with the Britten was patter. They thought it was the heim joints and tried everything but to no avail. It pattered to the end.
But NOW - on current slicks - NO Patter !!
Mike Sinclair has a theory that the current tyres have an in- built damping methodology. He went through it with Rainey and the 500's and they fixed it by altering the resonant frequency of forks and subframes with add-on weights. That's apparently not needed now. A quiet revolution not publicised.
At one point Mike told John Britten that he should give/lease the second team bike to me and my business partner. We'd been running Suzukis at the top level in NZ for a few years and he thought the team would get good feedback from us. Holden apparently heard about it and wanted to ride for us - he already had previously. I was approached quietly by a team member I knew well and asked what I'd change on the bike if I had a free hand. I said - those forks have to go.
End of possible lend/lease arrangement.

i note the comment re self-centering of trailing link forks. It all comes down to the trail figure. Trailing and leading links will have the same self-cenering feel with the same trail figure.
 
Cathcart - I was there when he tossed the Britten. Standing on the bank next to Ron Grant. We thought he'd lost a gear as cornering was stop-start.
Talking to him on the stretcher later he'd been taking two bites at every corner due to the front end being set up for the hippy - Jason McEwen.
Jase liked it set up rock hard and as steep a front as possible. Cathcart reckoned it was unrideable like that.
 
The Tony Foale book was a real eye-opener for me, and how Trail was god. So great info there Greg, I wonder how far down the tyre chain that tech has got. Road rubber yet? I find it also interesting how people think truth can spoil a good story, re The Britten. Plus the not invented here thing. Nobody is perfect and even Geniuses don't get everything right.
 
I worked for Larry Webb who had a Norman Hossak front end on a z1100 in about 1984 ( it didn?t dive at all under braking but felt very strange on your arms) we then built the  PDQ Battlemax that also had the same arrangement and was told it wouldn?t catch on. BMW cleverly made this system look like conventional forks to gain acceptance and now it?s regarded as normal. Conventional forks work well enough which has frozen development of anything different.
 
Well I for one am very glad you did decide to get involved Greg. Really interesting and valuable contribution to the discussion. Sounds like everything that was written about the refusal to try alternatives with that front end were true. Must have been very frustrating!!
Listening to people dialling in front ends on race tracks these days it?s clear that low tyre pressures are high on the list. In the good old days of trying to race on Roadrunners and Phantoms the rule was relatively very high pressures.
 
From my wall at the sitting room
I met John in 90at his barn house after I have seen him an his bike at the Ruapuna Race Track in January 90.
For me as an engineer it is the example of engineering enthusiasm
An other photo is in my office.
 

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Piranha Brother 2 said:
Well I for one am very glad you did decide to get involved Greg. Really interesting and valuable contribution to the discussion. Sounds like everything that was written about the refusal to try alternatives with that front end were true. Must have been very frustrating!!
Listening to people dialling in front ends on race tracks these days it?s clear that low tyre pressures are high on the list. In the good old days of trying to race on Roadrunners and Phantoms the rule was relatively very high pressures.
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Don't credit me with too much knowledge. I have some experience with one - albeit high profile - example. My wanting to get shot of that front end if offered the bike to run was simply because Trev - the partner - and I had invested time and money in winning. We would not have done someone else's development at our cost unless we could continue winning....And while it was obvious the bike was lighter and more powerful than anything in the new for '90 WSB based F1, it was also obvious that the big hold up to getting it winning regularly was the bloody front end....
From John's perspective it was an integral part of the vision. Winning regularly would be nice - and the rest of the team lusted for wins - but he wasn't bothered.
It was all proving the ideas. As AndreG has just posted - an enthusiast. And as someone more intelligent than me said once - "God protect me from enthusiasts"
Andre - I was probably scrutineering that meeting Jan '90.
Ideally I'd have liked the earlier White power forked version with the later narrower engine package. Ground clearance was a problem with the early cam drive and ignition setup. Too wide.

As Exmoor beast has said, conventional forks work well enough. They do the right things - trail reduces as they dive which helps turn-in. No they're not stiff enough laterally - but they're getting better there too.
I've never understood the desire for constant trail in the design of alternative front ends. Seems all wrong to me.
 
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