I have blow a fork seal,is there a preferred type to use or should I head to the local bearing shop.While I am at it I am going to replace the crushed and split grommets I used to mount the stayed 3C front guard about 15 years ago.What I want to find are 8 stainless tubes to put through the holes in the rubber grommets so they don't get so crushed by the washer this time,are these available commercially or am I finding a tube and a hack saw.Back to the fork seals,I have heard over the years 2 new seals,1 new and 1 gutted seal and 1 seal and a spacer,any merit in either of these,yep stickshon,but I want no leaks for a long long time?
Guard and seals
- Thread starter Vince
- Start date
mcnicol
Hero member
- Location
- Safety Harbor, Florida, USA
Vince
If you want no leaks for a long time, do what bikes did successfully for decades after telescopic forks became pretty universal; protect the stanchion surfaces from dust and stone dings. Dust is easy, the first Laverda triples even did it from the factory, stick a set of concertina fork boots. Stone dings are less common anyway, and the only way to protect from them is steel shrouds like Brit forks from the 50s, would be very ugly and heavy and of doubtful value anyway.
But gaiters are easy to install, don't look too out of place on our old bangers, ans still easy to get. Andy Wagner's catalogue has them listed, other sources may also have them as available bolt-ons. The gaiters are used on dirt bikes so are readily available, but you also need spacers to locate them at the top.
Ken
If you want no leaks for a long time, do what bikes did successfully for decades after telescopic forks became pretty universal; protect the stanchion surfaces from dust and stone dings. Dust is easy, the first Laverda triples even did it from the factory, stick a set of concertina fork boots. Stone dings are less common anyway, and the only way to protect from them is steel shrouds like Brit forks from the 50s, would be very ugly and heavy and of doubtful value anyway.
But gaiters are easy to install, don't look too out of place on our old bangers, ans still easy to get. Andy Wagner's catalogue has them listed, other sources may also have them as available bolt-ons. The gaiters are used on dirt bikes so are readily available, but you also need spacers to locate them at the top.
Ken
Hi Vince, my tuppence-worth is to stick to two seals, just local bearing shop ones, my riding doesn't seem to demand teflon-like gliding fork action ... I can't recall replacing seals in my Jota but have had to do other bikes I have bought, and done them for other people, but many years ago I had my forks polished. The guy was supposed just to do the sliders but got carried away and polished the stanchions too. I was not happy, but as I said, the seals don't wear out. Anyway, I always keep them clean, wipe off dust and bugs, etc.
For the little spacer tubes, they are often all over the floor in dodgy bike wreckers shops, or you could try a hydraulic hose shop for a bit of steel bundy of the right bore and then cut your own.
HTH
Nick
For the little spacer tubes, they are often all over the floor in dodgy bike wreckers shops, or you could try a hydraulic hose shop for a bit of steel bundy of the right bore and then cut your own.
HTH
Nick
I have a set of Constanta boots on already,probably why its the first leak for at less 10 years,I am still tossing up weather to go with 1 old flogged seal and 1 new or both new.Is there that much difference to risk a leak?Been spoiled by that Snowy Run,4 days of smooth roads even the dirt ones,did my usual Sydney ride yesterday out to Wisemans Ferry and up besides the river and I have ridden dirt single track smoother that this rough as guts goat track,had to back off the damping in the shock to keep the wheel in contact with the road.Will check out the wreakers for the grommet sleaves,there guna love that big order
mcnicol
Hero member
- Location
- Safety Harbor, Florida, USA
Vince
My old XS1 Yamaha didn't have any circlips holding the fork seals in. I was on a stock route somewhere in western NSW, plunging in and out of potholes and corrugations, when one seal actually popped right out! All the oil blew out all over the place, and I was about a million miles from anywhere I could get fork oil.
So I pushed the seal back in and kept going, and damned if I could tell any difference, even at 130-140 kph. Rode all the way back to Brisbane, down Cunningham's Gap, no problems. So losing a seal probably isn't really going to hurt you much, the worst you can get on a slightly more modern fork is a slow leak anyway. If you're really worried, take some extra oil. Although getting the fork caps off on a Laverda at the side of the road is a pain with the standard bars.
Ken
My old XS1 Yamaha didn't have any circlips holding the fork seals in. I was on a stock route somewhere in western NSW, plunging in and out of potholes and corrugations, when one seal actually popped right out! All the oil blew out all over the place, and I was about a million miles from anywhere I could get fork oil.
So I pushed the seal back in and kept going, and damned if I could tell any difference, even at 130-140 kph. Rode all the way back to Brisbane, down Cunningham's Gap, no problems. So losing a seal probably isn't really going to hurt you much, the worst you can get on a slightly more modern fork is a slow leak anyway. If you're really worried, take some extra oil. Although getting the fork caps off on a Laverda at the side of the road is a pain with the standard bars.
Ken
M
morison
Guest
Vince,
I couldn't find any stainless tube either when I put my front guard on so I used brass tubing from the hardware shop. I can't remember the size but I took a bolt down with me and tried a few until I found the right one. I got new gommets from a mob called Moreton Rubber. Worked fine.
Chris
I couldn't find any stainless tube either when I put my front guard on so I used brass tubing from the hardware shop. I can't remember the size but I took a bolt down with me and tried a few until I found the right one. I got new gommets from a mob called Moreton Rubber. Worked fine.
Chris
Tippie
Hero member
- Location
- Dr?bak, Norway
I just use one double lip seal inserted to just allow the circlip to fit, no spacer under. 38X50X10.5 were the last ones I fitted years ago, found 38X50X12 previous time. No stiction to mention, available to suit Jap dirtbikes from before upside-downers. The rubber covers trap water and crap, causing the seals and stanchions to wear. It looks pox but I leave them off. Keiths RGS looks good with gaiters so a very good idea.
Fork oil is just hydraulic oil as is ATF so if you are stuck out in Woop Woop you can top up with that, it is between 10wt and 15wt. All hydr oil is full of additive heavy metals so wear gloves to keep them out of your central nervous system.
Fork oil is just hydraulic oil as is ATF so if you are stuck out in Woop Woop you can top up with that, it is between 10wt and 15wt. All hydr oil is full of additive heavy metals so wear gloves to keep them out of your central nervous system.
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
G'day Vince
When you're buying seals from a general seal/bearing shop, tell them it's for motorcycle forks because some rotary seals aren't suitable for reciprocating applications.
The main difference being that reciprocating seals are likely to come across particles of dirt as they sweep along the length of the shaft, so they need a double lip contact. The first (outer) lip is basically a dust seal that sweeps the dirt away from the internal (oil sealing) lip. With rotary seals, they stay in the same spot on the shaft, so a dust sweeping capability is not so important, and is often omitted altogether.
If you go to someone who sells seals for hydraulic rams, they'll know exactly what you're talking about. But resist the temptation to buy an hydraulic seal that's rated to 5000 PSI internal pressure. Get the lowest pressure rating you can. Low pressure seals won't grip the shaft so hard and will therefore have less stiction. Our old Marzo or Ceriani forks aren't pressurised and the seals are unlikely to ever see pressures more than a few PSI, so you don't need high pressure ratings.
I'm sure someone will chime in now and say they've used single lip rotary seals for years with no problem. Everyone has their own preferences.
Cheers,
Cam
When you're buying seals from a general seal/bearing shop, tell them it's for motorcycle forks because some rotary seals aren't suitable for reciprocating applications.
The main difference being that reciprocating seals are likely to come across particles of dirt as they sweep along the length of the shaft, so they need a double lip contact. The first (outer) lip is basically a dust seal that sweeps the dirt away from the internal (oil sealing) lip. With rotary seals, they stay in the same spot on the shaft, so a dust sweeping capability is not so important, and is often omitted altogether.
If you go to someone who sells seals for hydraulic rams, they'll know exactly what you're talking about. But resist the temptation to buy an hydraulic seal that's rated to 5000 PSI internal pressure. Get the lowest pressure rating you can. Low pressure seals won't grip the shaft so hard and will therefore have less stiction. Our old Marzo or Ceriani forks aren't pressurised and the seals are unlikely to ever see pressures more than a few PSI, so you don't need high pressure ratings.
I'm sure someone will chime in now and say they've used single lip rotary seals for years with no problem. Everyone has their own preferences.
Cheers,
Cam
Well I tried CBC Bearings and nada,so then Gowanlocks but they had 3 so its a week till there next order arrives,by then the grommet sleeves will be ready to swap onto the stayed front guard,and I still haven't bought the 8 grommets ,better go and have a look at my 15 years on the bike gators and see if there OK and not split.I still have to buy a couple of litres of 5wt,you would think I was planing a moon shot.Bloody motorbikes wasting my time again.
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
G'day Vince
The mudguard stay broke on my Jota shortly after I bought it. I discovered that the PO had bolted it solidly to the forks. After welding it up, I rubber mounted it using cable grommets from an electrical shop and home-made spacers. I made the spacers by chopping up a length of stainless tube and truing the ends up in the lathe.
I can't remember if I have any of the tube left over, but if there's still enough left I could make you up a bunch of spacers. I won't be home until late tonight so I'll check my scrap bin tomorrow. If I don't get back to you in 24 hrs I'll have forgotten, so send me a reminder.
Cheers,
Cam
The mudguard stay broke on my Jota shortly after I bought it. I discovered that the PO had bolted it solidly to the forks. After welding it up, I rubber mounted it using cable grommets from an electrical shop and home-made spacers. I made the spacers by chopping up a length of stainless tube and truing the ends up in the lathe.
I can't remember if I have any of the tube left over, but if there's still enough left I could make you up a bunch of spacers. I won't be home until late tonight so I'll check my scrap bin tomorrow. If I don't get back to you in 24 hrs I'll have forgotten, so send me a reminder.
Cheers,
Cam
Jess Cam your a day late,I found some 9.8mm stainless tube and its being done as I type,thanks for the offer though,I originally fitted the guard with grommets about 15 years ago but so central metal sleeves and its been on the to fix list since then,BTW the original grommets are in a very sorry state,crumbling to dust so its about time I got to them
mcnicol
Hero member
- Location
- Safety Harbor, Florida, USA
I've just been replacing my fork seals and steering head bearings. I have Ceriani forks, and my first 3c was the same; the holes in the mudguard bracket are quite oversized, as if they were for grommets and steel sleeves, but there's no room for the "head" of a grommet when the mudguard is bolted to the forks. Does anybody else have any insight into this? Do the Ceriani forks not need grommets and sleeves?
Also I looked at my vibration blocks for the oil cooler. They must be the 32 year old originals, cracked and falling apart. Wolfgang won't be back on line for a while so I started looking for a supplier. Googled lots of "bobbins" in the UK and Canada, but apparently they don't like that term in the US. vibrationmounts.com in Noo Yawwrrkk had exactly what I wanted, in stock for $2.38 each, SKU V10Z 2M305AM06 if anybody in the US is interested.
I'd like to stress, for the benefit of the many new readers on this forum, that I don't advocate searching for low priced sources for Laverda parts. There's a very small number of businesses around the world supporting Laverda owners by keeping inventories of millions of dollars worth of parts, and we all rely on these people. I'd normally buy from Wolfgang, even though it would cost me a bit more (but not much). This is such a small purchase that it really won't have any significant impact on his cash flow, so I don't feel that letting the international community of Laverda owners down by looking outside the community.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't shop for prices within the Laverda supplier community, none of us are made of money.
Ken
Also I looked at my vibration blocks for the oil cooler. They must be the 32 year old originals, cracked and falling apart. Wolfgang won't be back on line for a while so I started looking for a supplier. Googled lots of "bobbins" in the UK and Canada, but apparently they don't like that term in the US. vibrationmounts.com in Noo Yawwrrkk had exactly what I wanted, in stock for $2.38 each, SKU V10Z 2M305AM06 if anybody in the US is interested.
I'd like to stress, for the benefit of the many new readers on this forum, that I don't advocate searching for low priced sources for Laverda parts. There's a very small number of businesses around the world supporting Laverda owners by keeping inventories of millions of dollars worth of parts, and we all rely on these people. I'd normally buy from Wolfgang, even though it would cost me a bit more (but not much). This is such a small purchase that it really won't have any significant impact on his cash flow, so I don't feel that letting the international community of Laverda owners down by looking outside the community.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't shop for prices within the Laverda supplier community, none of us are made of money.
Ken
78jotadave
Hero member
Ken, re your XS1 forks popping out a seal with no ill effect, probably more a reflection on how bad the forks were to begin with. Race-Tech sells its own formula of fork oils in various weights I do not know what their secret is but it really really smooths out the action of my old Marzo forks. Dave
mcnicol
Hero member
- Location
- Safety Harbor, Florida, USA
Dave
Yes, my XS1 had a few problems, mobile oil seals were only a minor one. It spat me off several times with 130kph tankslappers. Welding up the crack in the front wheel, truing and balancing the wheel with a new tyre, and fitting a steering damper did cure that problem. I'm not sure I can really blame the bike for that though...
Good to know about the Racetech oil. I'm still waiting for the Racetech vintage tech support guy to get back to me with recommendations for fitting an emulator to Ceriani forks. There aren't many moving parts in there, but I need to know for sure what bits to take out and what has to be left in, and exactly where and how many holes to drill. He's also going to tell me what I need to know about piston bands. Now I can also ask him about what grade of oil I should try .
Ken
Yes, my XS1 had a few problems, mobile oil seals were only a minor one. It spat me off several times with 130kph tankslappers. Welding up the crack in the front wheel, truing and balancing the wheel with a new tyre, and fitting a steering damper did cure that problem. I'm not sure I can really blame the bike for that though...
Good to know about the Racetech oil. I'm still waiting for the Racetech vintage tech support guy to get back to me with recommendations for fitting an emulator to Ceriani forks. There aren't many moving parts in there, but I need to know for sure what bits to take out and what has to be left in, and exactly where and how many holes to drill. He's also going to tell me what I need to know about piston bands. Now I can also ask him about what grade of oil I should try .
Ken
Had an intersting discussion with Terry Hays re fork oil,with the std number of hole application on Cerianis they use 15wt,that surprised me as when he did my Husky they recommend 5 wt to speed up the fluid transfer,makes for a more suppal ride.He said with lighter oil the fork would rebound to quick especially on multiple bumps.There was also some comment made that if I was using 2 holes then the oil wt would need to be thicker,30wt.That bit went over my head.Anyway I asked for 7.5 wt,thats emulator in the fork,springs out and the fork bottomed,set level at 130mm,pump the fork slowly a couple of times to completely fill any cavity's.The weather has been to crappy to try them.BTW Race Tech sell a book called The Suspendion Bible,maybe that has a vintage section that might help .My mudguard is now on with new grommets stainless sleeves and stainless Alan heads with washers and it all fits OK,the sleeves ended up a couple of mils short so there is still a tiny bit of crush but OK for me,had to push the sleeves in with a nut and bolt,snug fit in the grommet.So its grommets into guard then sleeve into grommets then bolt on guard
with locktite,I just snugged the guard up as I didn't want to bind the fork action,did the same with the fork brace while BOUNCING the fork,its easy to bind them up and make the action harsh
with locktite,I just snugged the guard up as I didn't want to bind the fork action,did the same with the fork brace while BOUNCING the fork,its easy to bind them up and make the action harsh
mcnicol
Hero member
- Location
- Safety Harbor, Florida, USA
Vince
I wonder if the "standard number of holes" refers to the 1/2/4 hole options in the emulator itself, or 2 standard tiny holes vs 4 8mm holes I drill in the (totally irreplaceable) damper rod? I know I tried ATF on my old 3c and was horrified to see the front wheel bounce clear off the road on a bad surface
(hard to find on Queensland roads but it can be done if you know where to look :
). But when I went back to 15 weight oil that went away. And when I put 30 weight oil in, the forks didn't move at all, quite interesting on roundabouts :-X.
So ya reckon I need to rubber mount the front mudguard. It will mean putting the mudguard stays into tension; right now they're a very good fit with no rubber mounts between the mudguard bracket and the fork. Let's see what I can find that will let me do the rubber mount thing without breaking the stays!
Ken
I wonder if the "standard number of holes" refers to the 1/2/4 hole options in the emulator itself, or 2 standard tiny holes vs 4 8mm holes I drill in the (totally irreplaceable) damper rod? I know I tried ATF on my old 3c and was horrified to see the front wheel bounce clear off the road on a bad surface
(hard to find on Queensland roads but it can be done if you know where to look :). But when I went back to 15 weight oil that went away. And when I put 30 weight oil in, the forks didn't move at all, quite interesting on roundabouts :-X.So ya reckon I need to rubber mount the front mudguard. It will mean putting the mudguard stays into tension; right now they're a very good fit with no rubber mounts between the mudguard bracket and the fork. Let's see what I can find that will let me do the rubber mount thing without breaking the stays!
Ken