81Lav
Hero member
- Location
- NSW Australia
I have a set of remote reservoir Ohlins on my vintage dirtbike.They cost an insane amount to rebuild,rusty shafts,but after I finally got the right springs for my corpulent weight.Special Order from the OZ Distributor from Sweden they are magic.Definition of top suspension = smiles combined with a vacant look,you notice nothing untoward.Had the same thing happen after Terry Hays when through my modern dirtbike,you just have nothing to say.
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
I mean - let's face it: ANY gas/oil damper of a certain quality level will transform your bike (assumed it's set to the right adjustment) and warp it 20 - 30 years ahead in suspension technology.
My question to those that favor ?hlins or Wilbers: have you ever tried a different modern shock on the same bike? I did. Wilbers and YSS on the same bike - no f**n difference, at least none that can argue 50% higher costs with the Wilbers to me. Yeah - the Wilbers have a bit better, solid looking. Yeah, the Wilbers' clicks are a bit more "defined". But they do not have length adjustment (if you order that, they are more than TWICE the price of the YSS) and in Germany, they are as available as Wilber or ?hlins and Service - once necessary - is no issue at all as they use standard components and SO-Products and many other companies service them.
BTW: You think White Power/Technoflex was a good company and their products were of superior quality? Good news: the former white power developers developed the YSS shocks. They are simply cheaper for one reason: they are made in Asia.
I have bought a set of modern rearsets from Asia for 150? (OK - plus Tax and customs clearance it was a total of roughly 200?). Almost the same quality would cost in Germany around 400?. THAT is what the difference comes from. Machine hours in Germany cost you somewhere between 80 and 200?, people cost you between 40 and 80? an hour. Think how many hours go into such a footrest rearsets that contains roughly 40 parts and that need not only to be milled, drilled, threats cut, painted/coated etc. but also assembled with bearings, screws, washers etc. etc. etc. In Asia that cost you maybe 2 ?, in Germany that would be something of 150? alone.
My question to those that favor ?hlins or Wilbers: have you ever tried a different modern shock on the same bike? I did. Wilbers and YSS on the same bike - no f**n difference, at least none that can argue 50% higher costs with the Wilbers to me. Yeah - the Wilbers have a bit better, solid looking. Yeah, the Wilbers' clicks are a bit more "defined". But they do not have length adjustment (if you order that, they are more than TWICE the price of the YSS) and in Germany, they are as available as Wilber or ?hlins and Service - once necessary - is no issue at all as they use standard components and SO-Products and many other companies service them.
BTW: You think White Power/Technoflex was a good company and their products were of superior quality? Good news: the former white power developers developed the YSS shocks. They are simply cheaper for one reason: they are made in Asia.
I have bought a set of modern rearsets from Asia for 150? (OK - plus Tax and customs clearance it was a total of roughly 200?). Almost the same quality would cost in Germany around 400?. THAT is what the difference comes from. Machine hours in Germany cost you somewhere between 80 and 200?, people cost you between 40 and 80? an hour. Think how many hours go into such a footrest rearsets that contains roughly 40 parts and that need not only to be milled, drilled, threats cut, painted/coated etc. but also assembled with bearings, screws, washers etc. etc. etc. In Asia that cost you maybe 2 ?, in Germany that would be something of 150? alone.
I got a tech lecture re shocks from a Suspension guru a while back.One major difference is the top shelf units use a Rubber bladder that separates the gas charge from the oil.That allows very fine control over tiny movements of the shock.Downside is that bladder after a while allows the oil and gas to mix resulting in cavatation,tiny bubbles in the oil that reduce its damping control.So thats why suspension services are recommended annually for top shelf gear used in racing applications,bladder replacement and fluid changes.I had a look at his shim collection,it took a big wall to hang them on.Again in the bike tech world,more art than science.You cannot replace experience in the Bike Suspension business.He had a play with the Icons on my bike and I now have a smile and a vacant look,it does my needs.
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
Hi Vince,
That's right, experience rules. that is why the YSS are that good, the folks have 20+ years of experience at White Power and Technoflex...
Honestly: comparing the ikons with the ?hlins is just like comparing a 750 GT Laverda with a 2000 Fireblade. The ikons are oil damped standard classic copies (or better: reproduction) of some Konis designed in the late 70's. The ?hlins (or Wilbers or YSS or Maxton or.... any other oil/gas damped shock) are development wise lightyears ahead.
The reason why the Konis were such a great upgrade for our bikes in the 70's and 80's has to do with 2 major things: a) they were rebound adjustable, which makes a big difference over a shock that does not have that in terms of road-controle and b) they were a good mix of a sensitive oil/shim setup and some stronger springs, which made the shocks react better while being still under control by the rebound damping and raised the rear of the bike during riding, which changed the angle of the bike and improved the front geometry by that.
Result was more road control and better handling.
The oil/gas dampers are improving that again and offer a more granular setting (wilbers I think has something like 12 clicks for rebound (or was it 20?) where ikon had only 4, which basically only offered 2 that really could be used; also the pre-load can be adjusted without steps where Ikon/Koni only has 3 different levels where you either end up with to much or to less logically for almost any kind of rider).
So - ANY modern shock of a decent quality and with the right length and adjustments will improve handling and get you that big, big smile on your face, be sure.
That's right, experience rules. that is why the YSS are that good, the folks have 20+ years of experience at White Power and Technoflex...
Honestly: comparing the ikons with the ?hlins is just like comparing a 750 GT Laverda with a 2000 Fireblade. The ikons are oil damped standard classic copies (or better: reproduction) of some Konis designed in the late 70's. The ?hlins (or Wilbers or YSS or Maxton or.... any other oil/gas damped shock) are development wise lightyears ahead.
The reason why the Konis were such a great upgrade for our bikes in the 70's and 80's has to do with 2 major things: a) they were rebound adjustable, which makes a big difference over a shock that does not have that in terms of road-controle and b) they were a good mix of a sensitive oil/shim setup and some stronger springs, which made the shocks react better while being still under control by the rebound damping and raised the rear of the bike during riding, which changed the angle of the bike and improved the front geometry by that.
Result was more road control and better handling.
The oil/gas dampers are improving that again and offer a more granular setting (wilbers I think has something like 12 clicks for rebound (or was it 20?) where ikon had only 4, which basically only offered 2 that really could be used; also the pre-load can be adjusted without steps where Ikon/Koni only has 3 different levels where you either end up with to much or to less logically for almost any kind of rider).
So - ANY modern shock of a decent quality and with the right length and adjustments will improve handling and get you that big, big smile on your face, be sure.
G
Grant
Guest
Summarising then:
?hlins
Wilbers
Maxton
YSS
All good stuff.
Does anyone have model numbers and lengths for 180 triples?
I talked to an ?hlins rep at the Madrid bike show an they said the shock lengths available were 360 and 380mm, but I have in my mind that 365 or 370 are optimum, no?
?hlins
Wilbers
Maxton
YSS
All good stuff.
Does anyone have model numbers and lengths for 180 triples?
I talked to an ?hlins rep at the Madrid bike show an they said the shock lengths available were 360 and 380mm, but I have in my mind that 365 or 370 are optimum, no?
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
sfc1000uk said:
Make the right comparison, please... The RG TRCL are piggyback dampers with high-low-speed compression and rebound damping that come with length adjustment. Equally equipped Wilbers are 1299 plus 200? length adjustment = 1499? Listprice!!! That means TWICE AS MUCH as the YSS...
see http://www.so-products.com/shop/index.php?cat=c34019_76-89.html
vs. http://www.so-products.com/shop/index.php?cat=c23050_1000.html
The equivalent YSS to the Wilbes you mean are the RZ 362, wich have a Listprice of 499? and a street price of somewhere around 430?. Now compare that to the 733? for the Wilbers => more than 50% higher.
Romeo.D
Hero member
- Location
- Zadar - Croatia
On my bikes i have
ZXRR - Ohlins rear and Kayaba orginal fork revorked with Ohlins internals
Laverda Jota Wilbers rear and front
Honda CB1300SA Wilbers Rear and front
Nico Bakker Kawasaki 1984 ( Z1000 ELR engine ) White Power rear , Marchochi 38mm fork
From my subjective feel in driving i wolud rank suspension as mentioned above , i bought Wilbers ( becouse i buy at them for years for my bikes and some friends to and have good dicount ) .
Other bikes i have bought alredy with this suspenison on them .
To Lothar , producing in far east is cheaper das thet mean we all will be customer for far east product and where are we going to make money to buy this product if there is no jobs in rest of the world .
ZXRR - Ohlins rear and Kayaba orginal fork revorked with Ohlins internals
Laverda Jota Wilbers rear and front
Honda CB1300SA Wilbers Rear and front
Nico Bakker Kawasaki 1984 ( Z1000 ELR engine ) White Power rear , Marchochi 38mm fork
From my subjective feel in driving i wolud rank suspension as mentioned above , i bought Wilbers ( becouse i buy at them for years for my bikes and some friends to and have good dicount ) .
Other bikes i have bought alredy with this suspenison on them .
To Lothar , producing in far east is cheaper das thet mean we all will be customer for far east product and where are we going to make money to buy this product if there is no jobs in rest of the world .
D
Davo
Guest
AUD1299 for the RG362 YSS and AUD1950 for the Wilbers 633/643.
Which Wilbers shock are you talking about, Eco-line or high-end?
Which Wilbers shock are you talking about, Eco-line or high-end?
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
Davo said:
which is what I roughly said: 50% more for the Wilbers...
@ Romeo: What car are you driving and what do you think where most electronic components of your car are coming from? Are you buying drilling machines or other stuff at a local building supply store? What do you think where these machines are produced? where are the components of your PC produced you are writing your messages on?
I know it very well as a close friend of mine was developing a pneumatic drill hammer for a large worldwide manufacturer that has it's homebase close to Stuttgart. To decide if the product can reach a price below 200? (target was Enduser price 199?) has to be priced in the area of 229? was a difference in total manufacturing costs of several cents just. The manufacturing cost including shipping to Germany from far east was somewhere in the ballpark of 34 ? if not less (sorry - is 11 years ago, can't remember the right figures, but it was in that range...).
He went afterwards to Asia and lead the production in Malaysia and south Korea for 7 years.
The development of the YSS shocks have been partly done in Germany, partly in the Netherlands btw. YSS is just working as any other manufacturer does: they develop with highly qualified people in the first world and produce with low costs in 2nd or 3rd world.
Yogi
Hero member
- Location
- Bellingen NSW Australia
I recently bought a pair of YSS RG362 TRCL piggybacks for a Mirage TS that is in Canada at present, soon to be shipped to Australia. I bought them through the US agent (www.yssusa.com) at US$769.00, as the bike was not in Australia and the freight to Calgary was reasonable. you can get 20 click compression adjuster for an extra US$50, if you want to.
I looked at YSS, Maxton, Ohlins, and Wilbur, and also spoke with a few people on and off the forum.
If it helps, here is the description for that model:
Type: Self Adjusting Gas Shock with Piggyback Reservoir
Features: Pre-Load Adjustment, Rebound Adjustment 60 Clicks, Compression Adjustment ? 3 Positions: Soft, Medium, Hard ?36 mm 50 Micron Steel Bore and Radial Sinter Piston ? 12 mm Hardened Shaft ? Low Friction, Long Life Seal Block ? Bearing and Bushes or Clevis/ Fork to suit each Model ? Damping and Springrates Model specific ? Fork Fittings for Honda, Suzuki and all Scooters ? (Included: Ride Height Adjuster (Length Adjuster for +10 mm).
Available Lengths: 280 mm, 300 mm, 310 mm, 320 mm, 330 mm, 340 mm, 350 mm, 360 mm, 370 mm, 380 mm, 395 mm, 420 mm
I decided to go for 360mm length, with additional 10mm adjustment.
Yogi
I looked at YSS, Maxton, Ohlins, and Wilbur, and also spoke with a few people on and off the forum.
If it helps, here is the description for that model:
Type: Self Adjusting Gas Shock with Piggyback Reservoir
Features: Pre-Load Adjustment, Rebound Adjustment 60 Clicks, Compression Adjustment ? 3 Positions: Soft, Medium, Hard ?36 mm 50 Micron Steel Bore and Radial Sinter Piston ? 12 mm Hardened Shaft ? Low Friction, Long Life Seal Block ? Bearing and Bushes or Clevis/ Fork to suit each Model ? Damping and Springrates Model specific ? Fork Fittings for Honda, Suzuki and all Scooters ? (Included: Ride Height Adjuster (Length Adjuster for +10 mm).
Available Lengths: 280 mm, 300 mm, 310 mm, 320 mm, 330 mm, 340 mm, 350 mm, 360 mm, 370 mm, 380 mm, 395 mm, 420 mm
I decided to go for 360mm length, with additional 10mm adjustment.
Yogi
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Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
sfc1000uk said:
Well -why does a DMC cost you 450? while an ignitech with way more features and full adjustability cost you 129? (Plus Pickup-System if you need it)?
laverdakeith
Hero member
Laverdalothar said:sfc1000uk said:
Well -why does a DMC cost you 450? while an ignitech with way more features and full adjustability cost you 129? (Plus Pickup-System if you need it)?
Because the DMC is plug and play ?
Sort of person who goes for "features and adjustability" is probably the same sort of person who buys an Amstrad stereo or an Audi motorcar.....
Keith
Romeo.D
Hero member
- Location
- Zadar - Croatia
Lothar i also have 3 times cheper mehanics in croatia but i am still stupid inaf to send my bikes to germany for service , or buy und tune them in germany .
Let say working hr in D is 50? in croatia 15? .
At the end i found one mehanic in Split who worked many years in Kawaski Frankfurt and he konws his trade but his working hour in croatia is same as in germany .
This cheep mehanic usaulay destroy my bike , you can ask Piet or Roger how was my Jota engine when i brought it to them and i think that if the qality is right i am happy to pay the price .
Bdw by Wilbers i have 25% on prices from their web site wich is more than OK in price/qality qestion .
Let say working hr in D is 50? in croatia 15? .
At the end i found one mehanic in Split who worked many years in Kawaski Frankfurt and he konws his trade but his working hour in croatia is same as in germany .
This cheep mehanic usaulay destroy my bike , you can ask Piet or Roger how was my Jota engine when i brought it to them and i think that if the qality is right i am happy to pay the price .
Bdw by Wilbers i have 25% on prices from their web site wich is more than OK in price/qality qestion .
Lothar, you've a point on production cost.
But one shouldn't measure the quality of a product on its features alone. Performance comes first, then service and durability. If YSS gives all of this at a fraction of the price of its competitors, we should be very grateful for your advocacy, but don't forget that you usually get what you pay for.
I've had full feature budget shocks on my mountainbikes, but they all broke down, or performed so poorly that i was better of fitting a wooden bar instead.
My experience with suspension is that it is usualy an endless debate, because it's very difficult to discuss objective about the performance which is perceived through your bum and not measured, unless you're doing lap timing etc.
But one shouldn't measure the quality of a product on its features alone. Performance comes first, then service and durability. If YSS gives all of this at a fraction of the price of its competitors, we should be very grateful for your advocacy, but don't forget that you usually get what you pay for.
I've had full feature budget shocks on my mountainbikes, but they all broke down, or performed so poorly that i was better of fitting a wooden bar instead.
My experience with suspension is that it is usualy an endless debate, because it's very difficult to discuss objective about the performance which is perceived through your bum and not measured, unless you're doing lap timing etc.
Yogi
Hero member
- Location
- Bellingen NSW Australia
Best value should not be based on price alone, so the cheapest is not necessarily the best overall value. Likewise, just because a brand is the most expensive, or the most visible in regard to advertising, sponsorships and other marketing initiatives, it does not make it necessarily any worthier than a cheaper brand.
We can all remember the days when Ohlins and Wilber were not the names on everyones lips, but there is no doubt that they hold a high percentage of sales these days.
I have no issue with where a product is made - in my own industry, some of the very best and worst brands are made throughout the world - Europe, USA and Asia. I see bad product coming from some of the most marketable names quite often and some great boats being built by smaller, lesser known companies that sometimes do not seem to get the success that they justly deserve, but customers make their choice of purchase over many different criteria, and brand perception often wins over due diligence - each to their own, I say.
The YSS shocks came recommended from current users and gave me the ability to vary shock length between 360 and 370mm, which was one of the features I was looking for. I am certainly no expert here, but am confident that they will more than do the job for me, as well as the pair of non-piggyback YSS shocks I bought earlier for my SF1.
I can understand why Grant might go with Ohlins or Wilber given their reputation, but I still think that YSS and Maxton are very good (and worthy) alternatives to the better known and more widely used brands. Lothar having used YSS and also Ohlins/Wilber, yet preferring the YSS overall seems a good comparison recommendation to me. My second choice would have been to go for Maxton...
Grant, I plan to run mine at 365mm to start, with a further 5mm up my sleeve if required.
Yogi
We can all remember the days when Ohlins and Wilber were not the names on everyones lips, but there is no doubt that they hold a high percentage of sales these days.
I have no issue with where a product is made - in my own industry, some of the very best and worst brands are made throughout the world - Europe, USA and Asia. I see bad product coming from some of the most marketable names quite often and some great boats being built by smaller, lesser known companies that sometimes do not seem to get the success that they justly deserve, but customers make their choice of purchase over many different criteria, and brand perception often wins over due diligence - each to their own, I say.
The YSS shocks came recommended from current users and gave me the ability to vary shock length between 360 and 370mm, which was one of the features I was looking for. I am certainly no expert here, but am confident that they will more than do the job for me, as well as the pair of non-piggyback YSS shocks I bought earlier for my SF1.
I can understand why Grant might go with Ohlins or Wilber given their reputation, but I still think that YSS and Maxton are very good (and worthy) alternatives to the better known and more widely used brands. Lothar having used YSS and also Ohlins/Wilber, yet preferring the YSS overall seems a good comparison recommendation to me. My second choice would have been to go for Maxton...
Grant, I plan to run mine at 365mm to start, with a further 5mm up my sleeve if required.
Yogi
G
Grant
Guest
I already have a Wilbers monoshock on POP, and Maxton-converted forks.
Electrical woes and lack of time and priority means I have not finished that project.
FWIW I don't like the look of the YSS piggyback shocks (cue 3 page reply from Lothar), haven't seen Wilbers piggyback shocks (twin shocks that is) but I have seen, and like, the ?hlins shocks. I have only seen a pic of non-piggyback Maxtons and they didn't float my boat in the looks department. I am sure they are a technically competent system.
I'm not going to be swayed by reputation, which is why I am asking folk on this thread what they have and what they think of them.
But if I am paying serious wonga for a pair of shocks they not only have to work well but I want them to look the part as well.
Electrical woes and lack of time and priority means I have not finished that project.
FWIW I don't like the look of the YSS piggyback shocks (cue 3 page reply from Lothar), haven't seen Wilbers piggyback shocks (twin shocks that is) but I have seen, and like, the ?hlins shocks. I have only seen a pic of non-piggyback Maxtons and they didn't float my boat in the looks department. I am sure they are a technically competent system.
I'm not going to be swayed by reputation, which is why I am asking folk on this thread what they have and what they think of them.
But if I am paying serious wonga for a pair of shocks they not only have to work well but I want them to look the part as well.
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
Yogi said:
Not that I am an expert, but for what I use them, I can't find enough reason to spend a 50% premium for Wilber's or almost 100% with ?hlins. But each to his own... Especially on the standard swing arm and rims setup you won't find enough reason to argue this price...
Grant: for the look of it: take the ones without piggyback and they look like Konis (but work way better...) while the Wilber's with blue springs or the golden ?hlins just look weird for me on a classic bike...
G
Grant
Guest
What about a carbon fibre bike, with very little standard stuff on it?