How to make an RGS considerably lighter???? Bonneville bound

Christ people actually agreeing with this daft old twat.

I have been round the block a few times and worked in many industries it is amazing how much of the stuff you pick up sticks.

I also spoke the other day with a mad French bloke that also has a team going to Bonneville, running a Triumph Tiger Cub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He purchased a chain and discussed which chain to use on the rear. He then said he held several records at Bonneville and intended to break some more.

All this on a bleak bit of tarmac behind the the Heritage Museum at Gaydon. Funny old world or what.

Andy
 
>Stripping the chassis reveals clever design work and thorough attention to detail. Examples: when the tank is removed , its rubber mount pops off to plug the evaporative breather >so gas won't spill; the fairing removes in a jiffy by unscrewing seven fasteners; the seat's twin locating pegs on each side double as helmet locks; the tool tray lifts out for easy >battery access; and there's even a small plastic bottle for battery water. Adjusting the footpeg linkage requires two 10mm wrenches, and?guess what??the kit contains two 10mm >wrenches. Any detailed inspection reveals evidence of Laverda's concern for quality.

Hi all

ran across a 1983 review of the RGS today while researching RGS gearing ratios. See the quote above. Never noticed that a rubber tank mount would fit to plug the tank breather, and my bike didn't come with a small plastic bottle for battery water. Did anyones?

see the full article at    http://motorbikearchives.com/Bike-Tests/Road-and-Street/Laverda-RGS-1000-1983.html

looks like European RGS's came with 16/34 sprockets, giving apparently a top speed at "redline" rpm of 142 mph. I am not sure what the author of the article is using for a redline to calculate top speed...... 8,500?, 7,500? Also looks like U.S versions of the RGS came with 16/36 sprockets. Those are 630 chain sprockets, I think 530 chain sprockets change the number of teeth to get the same result?r

I did try a larger 530 reat sprocket from Wolfgang at one point, that together with the engine build and flatslide carbs resulted in the  stupid aborted wheelie video my son posted on YouTube, I couldn't launch the bike hard without the front end heading unexpectedly sharply skyward.

I am just figuring out top speed gearing for 530 chain, I am presently guessing going down at least two or three less teeth might get me where I want to be for top speed, but I am going to run through the calculations now.....

my RGS "1200" pullls hard right up to a tach indicated 9,000+ rpm easy at least in the lower gears, now I need to figure what top speed gearing it will actually "pull" in 5th gear, drag limited..... Has anyone any experience with gearing an RGS tall for top speed runs??

Paul LeClair
 
not an RGS, but SFC and a tuned 1200 180? Motor...  ;)

The SFC currently runs a 19/40 setup, which leads to roughly 225km/h, sometimes a bit above (real figures, measured with GPS, not with the Vegli... that showed 280km/h or so... :D). That was at 8.200 revs if I remember right (and the tacho does not lie...). Wrong mains prevented from going faster...

The Jota did run a 19/37 once which let it run up to 245 on the Speedo (did not have a GPS with me). Realistically I would say that was maybe 225 - 230 km/h and that was around 8.200 revs (again: if the tacho does not lie...).

HTH

BTW: there is a small (unfortunately only German...) tool available called "Geardata", which lets you enter transmissions and calculate based on that how fast the bike would go in wich gear etc. Maybe it helps...: http://www.svs-tools.de/resources/geardata.zip


HTH
 
Hi Lothar

225 kph GPS verified is pretty much 140 mph. Top speed calculated from that gearing is about 142 mph  at 8,500 rpm.... My goal for the RGS is to exceed that speed by as much as possible, hoping to break at least 150 mph. I am aiming high and we will see what the bike manages, with various people telling me that the salt will knock at least 20 mph off the top end of any bike, so maybe the RGS will be doing well to break 120 mph on the salt, who knows. :-\

To calculate the ZX 14 gearing I have been using    www.gearingcommander.com  which is in English, I have no German, although I can usually figure out at least how to order beer and food when I am in Germany, at least until I have had WAY too much dark beer........ :D I haven't entered the Laverda data into the software yet, Wolfgang confused me with his explanation of the difference in the number of teeth between 630 chain sprockets and 530 chain sprockets, and I have yet to measure the circumference of the rear tire I have mounted on the 4 inch Astralite rear wheel I am using, but I'll get my mind wrapped around the issues and get the calculations done eventually. :LOL:

I talked to Wolfgang Haerter today, who is coming to Calgary this weekend, and I will be getting together with him over the weekend. He is bringing me the smallest sized 530 rear sprockets he has, some clip ons to replace the tall RGS Executive bars presently on the bike, etc. and once I see what he has for small 530 rear sprockets I'll be able to figure out if I am going to need to have some Laverda sprockets custom made or not.

I also for the ZX 14 just bought yet another exhaust system, this time a Japanese made 4 into 2 into 1 Tsugiki Racing system, supposedly dyno tested at an almost 17 hp top end gain with proper fuel mapping. The thing is built like a piece of art, the welds are as perfect as anything I have ever seen.....

I am fed up with DynoJet dyno's, and fed up with tuning to an air/fuel ratio. It looks to me like the only way to know what air/fuel ratio to tune to, you first have to know what air/fuel ratio gives the best power at each increment of throttle opening, and load. Sort of a chicken and egg conundrum. Tuning to 13.2, or 12.9, or 13.7. or whatever, just isn't doing it for me, and it is tough enough to test the RGS's reaction to air/fuel ratio changes on the street, never mind the ZX 14 which is so stupid powerful that a full throttle run through even the first couple of gears on the street will get you jailed.....

I just booked a day of dyno time for mid January, 2010, for the ZX 14, and the 84 RGS "1200", this time on a Factory Pro EC 997 Low Inertia Eddy Current chassis dyno    http://www.factorypro.com  There isn't one in Calgary, I am going to have to trailer the bikes to central Alberta to get to the only Factory Pro dyno in Alberta, run by a serious heavyweight race tuner, tuning for national level dealer supported race teams with great success, lots of ZX 14 fuel mapping experience, and running monster cooling fans in the dyno room. The ZX 14 will be on the dyno for a full mapping in its expected Bonneville configuration and tall gearing, with full mapping estimated to take 3 or 4 hours, and then the RGS will be run for as long as it takes to fully dial in optimum timing advance and the flat slide carbs. I am taking the alternative needles, and a wide selection of jets, for the flat slides.... Time to get serious about this.... :D

Paul LeClair
 
Hi paul - For your requirements of not just needing acceleration, the "accelerometer" type of dyno is not really adequate - The eddy current is about the best - we used to use a water brake attached to a rolling road that we adjusted to hold the engines at the required RPM for a short while until the readings stabilised - true to say we never saw a reading rise - only fall. Often we would see "power fade" - usually down to the spark plugs getting too hot - this would never show on a dyno that didn't hold RPM steady. We could also get fuelling right at any throttle opening (as much as the D/O's would allow). I used to race my old 1200 with B10EV spark plugs - never foulled and i knew i would never lose power by plugs giving up
                Great effort - great thread - best of luck - Regards - Phil
 
The difference between the number of teeth in the 630-530 sprockets is down to physical size. If you use the same number of teeth on a 530 as a 630 there would not be enough meat to get the the thing made. Just measure the diam and use comparable diams as a start point.

If you want a range of gearing just go to a bearing distributor or better an industrial sprocket distributor and ask for a 10B-1 platewheel (UK) or an asa50 platewheel  (US) in the number of teeth you need. You will get a flat disc with a pilot bore that can be machined and lightened as much as you want. The cost for a typical platewheel in UK would be around ?18.

You could then do a range of rear sprockets to test on to get the best results.

The above platewheels just need skimming down to make them 520.

After testing you could get the optimum sprocket made in alloy for lightness, but in my experience a well lightened steel sprocket can be made the same weight as alloy without loosing tooth integrity. My man once made me a clutch basket in steel that was considerably lighter than the stock alloy "race" one and it lasted years.

Andy  
 
Wolfgang offers home delivery ???



Our Paul has achieved Rock Star status!!!


Seriously,  Bonneville preparation is way better reading than Tiger Woods, Britney Spears or Anna Nicole.



Keep it coming,


Richard



 
Paul one thing to remember which i think is very important don't go flat out from the start theres a good chance you will blow the motor Bonneville,s long watch the markers give her all shes got on the last few, your not timed, its as you break the lights.as for ruining a good Laverda, rubbish there are a few of us who in differant ways want to see laverdas out there taking on allcomers what ever the odds. Iam racing my space frame in the endurance next year at Spa the french lads will be the riders if they total it then at least we tried, did Bob dixon worry about his space frame at spa in 2007,no, he was there with me cheering the team on and he will be there with me next year with my bike crossing the finish line,good on you Paul do your best what ever the result i,ll be proud of you,best of luck mate,Ray
 
Hi Richard

Wolfgang has an adult daughter in Calgary and he and his wife visit Calgary regularly to visit her. Wolfgang also passes through Calgary every time he flys to Europe, as he goes through the Calgary International airport, so a number of us Calgary based Laverda enthusiasts see him fairly regularly. Every time he is here he usually does the rounds of our various garages to see what builds are in progress, offer advice, and even hands on assistance..... :D One of his visits last year I happened to be building a 72 750 engine, and I happened to be lightly cleaning up the head porting with a die grinder when Wolfgang drove up my driveway. Long story short, the engines owner got the treat of Wolfgang diving in with the die grinder and showing us how it really needs to be done..... :D

Wolfgang is a truly nice decent guy, with a nice family. A real pleasure to know.

Paul LeClair
 
Paul LeClair said:
Hi Richard

Wolfgang has an adult daughter in Calgary and he and his wife visit Calgary regularly to visit her. Wolfgang also passes through Calgary every time he flys to Europe, as he goes through the Calgary International airport, so a number of us Calgary based Laverda enthusiasts see him fairly regularly. Every time he is here he usually does the rounds of our various garages to see what builds are in progress, offer advice, and even hands on assistance..... :D One of his visits last year I happened to be building a 72 750 engine, and I happened to be lightly cleaning up the head porting with a die grinder when Wolfgang drove up my driveway. Long story short, the engines owner got the treat of Wolfgang diving in with the die grinder and showing us how it really needs to be done..... :D

Wolfgang is a truly nice decent guy, with a nice family. A real pleasure to know.

Paul LeClair
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  Wolfgang's one of the nicest most decent guys I've ever met. True understated class!

  Steve
 
That was supposed to be a smiley face about Wolfgang's home delivery!!!
:D :D :D




Maybe if I spend a few more dollars, he'll fly through Minneapolis next trip.  I could always use the help with projects around here too.  :D :D :D



Paul, how about Zen meditation before the speed run? 

UMMMMM,  200MPH  UMMMM, 200 mPH, UMMMMMM


Richard
 
Hi Paul--I've embarked on the same journey, only with a HD XR750 TT, and will run in the APS/PG class. Most of what I've read on actual running has little to do with weight; the fastest cars have quite a bit of ballast added. Weight is not your enemy here; drag and traction are. Get the SCTA rulebook, as its a must-read for prepping a bike--I wouldn't have thought to add a steering angle limiter (-+ 15 degrees). Another resource is http://www.landracing.com/forum/ --there are a lot of questions answered here, plus an interesting way to look at approaches to go fast. Hopefully, I'll see you in Wendover.
 
Paul,
Are you still planning on going to the Bub Speed Trials this year?  I haven't heard much lately and started to wonder.  Just wonderin....

Patrick Cherry
Ojai, CA  USA
 
I see mention of using Nitrogen in tires, in earlier posts. Before anyone does this, find out from the tire (and tube) makers if they recommend it. There are some rubber type compounds that are NOT compatible with it. Worked at a few high tech companies that used it for various reasons. First company discovered the problem when 0-rings literally turned to dust! Lack of oxygen is the culprit, IIRC.

Anyway, the real reason for using Nitrogen is it has been dried in the process. Seems it is actually the water vapor heating up, that causes some of the air pressure rise as the tire heats in use. This comes from moisture in the air, plus water in the compressor tank/lines. So, dried air should be sufficient for most applications. If the tire/tube makers can't advise on the issue, find out what kind of rubber the inside layer of the tire, and the tube itself, is made from. Then look it up in an o-ring catalog. These will advise as to what is incompatible with various materiels.

Will
 
well, does anyone remember the photo I took and posted a few years back on MSN Laverda of my heavily "built" Harley full dresser Ultra Classic speedo slowing down to 160 kph, taken with both hands off the bars and the bike on cruise control.
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this one (attached)?

and my bike didn't come with a small plastic bottle for battery water. Did anyones?
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Yes - but I thought it's intended use was oil for chain lubrication...!
 

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triumphguy said:
Paul,
Are you still planning on going to the Bub Speed Trials this year?  I haven't heard much lately and started to wonder.  Just wonderin....

Patrick Cherry
Ojai, CA  USA
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Hi Patrick

the bikes are both fully prepared to run, but......

I am presently 2,000+ miles away from my home in Calgary, dealing with family issues. I just got my 82 year old father (who had a massive stroke a year and a half ago) moved to a brand new and hopefully much better nursing home, and yesterday morning got my 81 year old mother sprung from six weeks in the hospital and returned to her home. I am here because the medical people wouldn't let her return to her home unless there is someone with her full time (for the moment, me), so I am starting the process of either hiring in home care for her or selling the house and moving her to a nursing home as well.......

bottom line, family obligations are priority over hobby activities, and it looks like Bonneville/BUB Speed Week for me at least will have to wait until summer 2011.

Paul LeClair
 
bottom line, family obligations are priority over hobby activities, and it looks like Bonneville/BUB Speed Week for me at least will have to wait until summer 2011.
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Paul,
I'm disappointed as I'm sure you are but I understand completely.  Family always comes first.  It will be just as much fun next year.

Best wishes,

Patrick
 
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