Ignitech fitting 120 degree

On series 2 engines, the HW installation is pretty much straight forward, no matter if Series 1 or 2 Witt Systems. Series 1 (Bosch) engines I haven't done so far, so can't tell. Are you referencing Series 1 engines?

Else you can ask Piet or me any time, we are happy to help. Might be Uwe hasn't updated the installation material in english, not sure.

I wonder though how ILOC can claim for something they have no copyright on...  ::) It would wonder me if Uwe Witt officially gave them copyright-alike permissions...

Maybe a helpfull DMC 2 user who might be by chance also an ILOC member can provide you his copy for reference...  ;)
 
Piet is guiding me through it as he supplied it to me.
Uwe has not translated the instructions into any other language.
I just fitted one to a series 1 very recently (last 2 weeks) and now I am fitting one to a series 2.
At the end of the process I will not need any translations but there are few diagrams in the instructions and I think the depth of detail is not apparent. Might be perfectly explained in the text, bu that is no use to me.

I speak (of sorts) French and Spanish but I only have very basic conversational German.
Vie geht es and all that.

I am more or less sorted for now though.
Just spent 2 days planning*, designing* and fabricating* mounts for the Dyna coils.
Soon I will get on with the hardware installation, likely next week.

* Lots of cutting and bashing, drilling and more bashing, plus the occasional swear word.
 
:D
great you are sorted for now. Piet is a great help as he is native speaker to both languages. He has lots of time currently, maybe enough to do the job for Uwe...  ;)
 
A big thank you to everyone for their help on the Sasche trigger board / Ignitech TCIP4 setup, including support from Jiř? at Ignitech & Marco at Sasche  It has been an entertaining day - turns out the Sasche board has an intermittent fault on one trigger output.  For the record, if you need to check Sasche Hall effect trigger output, you connect the board's +5v supply and ground wires and measure DC 3.8 volts (approx) on each trigger wire which drops to nearly zero when the trigger fires.  The TT1 recommissioning will continue in due course.......
 
Rob said:
  The TT1 recommissioning will continue in due course.......
Click to expand...

Rob
Has your wife sent up more supplies of cake to see you through the recommission process?

Good luck
Smithy
 
Grant said:
Likely no one has run all 3 systems.
Click to expand...

actually, I have tried 4 different systems not counting the Boyer we found on a triple few years ago that we could never get to run

first ignition upgrade I tried was a DMC1 Series 1 system some 20 odd years ago on my 79 Jota, seemed okay but I was having issues with the standard Bosch triggers at the time and the DMC did not fix that issue and then I came across an IIS Series 1 system and that was such an improvement over the DMC design as the IIS supplied their own trigger board set up I have never used a DMC since

then we got involved with John at IIS helping him to mass produce the IIS Series 1 system, we started machining the Kawasaki alternator conversions for him but John wandered off as most genius level folk seem to do so the IIS supply faded away

we then formed an association with Volker Sachse to make us the trigger boards we needed to mate up to the alternator conversions we were producing for the Series 1 engines, he did design a suitable board for us using Optical triggers which I am not a fan off so convinced him to make the Series 1 boards with Hall Effect triggers and in the end Volker changed the majority of his boards to Hall Effect
Sachse system was okay but I totally agree with Piet, 2/3rds of the pre-programmed curves were unsuitable for a Laverda engine and we kept having some issues with the earth wire termination from the trigger board where it uses the outer sheath as well as the inner

had started using the Ignitech system mated to a Sachse board just before Volker passed, bought one to use on our engine dyno to allow us to design advance curves for different engine set ups, was intending to send those curves to Volker to use. I had been bugging Volker for a programmable system prior to that but he kept saying no, he did not wish to make one
Once he passed we were forced to find some other way of producing our own ignition systems so found a Laverda owner in Aussie (thanks Lex) who could make the trigger boards for us and we make everything else required and use the Ignitech unit as the controller
we sell these systems as a complete bolt on unit, for all Laverda models, pre-programmed to suit the model of bike in question (as long as I load the correct map, sorry "x" ) 

If we had a website and advertised we would sell a lot more ignition systems but truthfully, am not that interested, it suits me to have my own Redax/Ignitech ignitions in stock that I use on customers bikes and we do sell to the general public when asked but have no desire to compete with Sachse or DMC
Takes a lot of time to make wiring looms and machine all the parts required and I'd much rather spend that time trying to find another 10-15 horsepower for our race engines

Plus you need bunches of patience selling ignition systems to the general public, found that out big time when we were the Sachse Australian agents stocking Sachse systems for all types of bikes, by far the worst being the Ducati owners though the wet set up on a Ducati was a difficult installation

for a race type engine you cannot beat the Ignitech system, we are using one on Paul's Series 1 race bike, mated to a Lex made Hall Effect trigger board, running 3 x 0.6 ohm Nology ignition coils, engine fires on the second revolution as we have it set for and settles straight into an idle, revs clean through to 8,900 rpm under full load
when we did our 60 odd dyno runs on that bike we spent time working on the ignition coil dwell settings and advance curves which improved the engine power output and especially the power curve 10 fold
none of the other Ignition systems on the market offer the adjustability of the Ignitech set up without going to a full on engine management system and they are well priced for the bare unit

 
Oddly enough, with my very limited German and a good dictionary I managed to install a Witt DMC2 without too much of a headache. When I did manage to get the English instructions I hadn't made any mistakes. Not blowing any trumpets, just saying. Also, good to meet you Grant, hope the rest of your travels in the UK went ok!..Stuart
 
Grant said:
Likely no one has run all 3 systems.

Just spent 2 days planning*, designing* and fabricating* mounts for the Dyna coils.

* Lots of cutting and bashing, drilling and more bashing, plus the occasional swear word.
Click to expand...

Hi Grant
In fact i have tried/used fitted both Witts, still using a series one in the Corsa as it goes fitted back in the early 90's and is still working though when the bike gets hot there is an issue... but suspect it is from the 40 year old factory pickups...
The Executive has a Witt series 2 fitted to it.
RGS had an IIS first series then a second series now I have fitted an ignit tech
Cico has a Sasche oh and hte 3C uses a Witt.

As for you taking 2 days to make a bracket I feel your pain as i made a bracket for the Nology coils on the RGS

However if I had been smarter/more forward thinking then would have simply bought a beautifully crafted bracket from Red.
We fitted one of those puppies to Vince's bike took all of like 5 mins ...

Am sure you will get there with the Witt and once fitted all this trail and tribulation will be worth it.

For the record I was going to a Sasche on the RGS but somehow the Ignitech and now I understand it wow am not thinking that should have gone that way with the Cico ..........................
Red has done a lot of R&D on these units as for the reason of his post and got to say for the $$$ he charges is a very good deal....

 
Good to hear a few folk have experience of several systems.
I'm sure if I had a race bike or wanted loads of dyno time I would appreciate tbe greater functionality of an Ignitech system.
The Witt system for the series 2 I am fitting has a new trigger system. It looks like an optical system. Had an optical system in my 750/4 and it never missed a beat in the 19 years it was in my tenure.
Sounds like Red can make the Ignitech system plug and play, which probably would suit the folk like me with no desire or ability to fine tune/reprogram it or access to a fine tuner.

If all these systems are as robust as the original systems then likely few of us will be around when they finally need replacing. 
 
that is absolutely true, Grant. I have the DMC1 180? on my Jota since more than 20 years, never missed a beat due to the ignition. It was also the first upgrade I did to the 1000 SFC, this time a Series 2. This one only had one time where it did not start the engine - but that was after an accident where the primary cover was damaged to a degree where the optical sensor was damaged, too - so not the systems fault, right?  ;) Replaced the optical sensor (and the primary cover) and the bike fired up right away.

On the two 1000 SFC's I had, the DMC 1 was already installed, so never thought of a different system. Once the other issues were fixed on the Classic, the bike fired up like it should.

I once "programmed" an ignitech for a friend of mine (8 years ago or so) who installed it on his RGS. Programming was quite easy and well documented, you simply download and install the software from the website, enter the degree values for the pre-ignition for several different RPM's, set a rev-limiter if you want and enter the right pickup/sensor and that's it for the basic settings. quite straight forward, no rocket science. The more you use the boxes functions though, the more knowledge should be involved. But still, most of the functions are just turned off or on, so relatively easy to decide.

Once you have done all the settings, you connect the box with your laptop/computer and store the software on the box. back to the bike, connect the connector(s) and fire the bike up. that's it.

The good thing is, it works with the standard pickups from Laverda, it works with new pickup systems, even with Hall sensors (needs special order, same price..) or others, so that you have a wide range of trigger systems to use.

You can connect a side-stand switch, have an adjustable tacho output (so that f.e. you can use the LAVERDA tacho from a Zane on a Breganze bike...), can use a fuel pump, temperature sensor and several other devices which f.e. Cape has used to make his bike run more efficient and put out more torque. With the TPS-input, you could even make up a map for the ignition, not only a curve.

But that is all just optional and absolutely not necessary to use if you just want a better ignition system on your bike. You can start as low as entering a simple curve, setting the sensor to the Bosch pickup-system and connect it correctly and it will work as good as any other system for just around 150? plus shipping. On an RGS, they can even deliver full cabling to plug it into the existing plugs that normally go into the 3 ignition boxes, so cabling comes pre-configured...

I asked Red for his program as I was unsure on how to set the right settings for the hall sensor board he provides, and he gently sent it to me. I ordered the ignition system yesterday and once "my prefered engine man" has enough time to sort the rest of the engine out, I will make some pics on how to mount the system on the Motoplast...  ;) If I can do it, anyone can  8)

 
About 15 years ago, the Bosch BTZ ignition on my Ducati was giving problems. I did a web search for aftermarket ignitions and came across a little-known company in the Czech Republic. Their product specs looked interesting but it was so cheap (a fraction of the price of anything else on the market) I thought it might be rubbish. So I asked around a few bike forums whether anyone had any knowledge of this mysterious Ignitech mob, but nobody else had heard of them either. I suppose the company was only a couple of years old then and had bugger-all market penetration outside the Czech Republic.

Anyway, the price was such that  it wouldn't be a financial tragedy if it the thing turned out to be a dud. So it was worth a gamble.

When it arrived, only a few days after I placed the order, I was immediately impressed by the rugged construction of the ignition module and the programming versatility of it. The info that came with it was quite comprehensive and the instructions (in English) reasonably idiot-proof, including wiring diagrams and a table explaining the function of each pin on the multi-pin connector. They even provided a suggested program file for my Ducati on the software CD that came with the ignition. I installed it without any problems and the bike fired up immediately and settled into a steady idle, which it had never done before in its life! It took a bit of tweaking on the dyno to get the advance curve perfect through the whole rev range (try doing that with pre-programmed dvance curves). I became an Ignitech fan then and there.

Since then I've installed them on other bikes including a few Laverdas, and they've all worked perfectly. Except for the one on Tim's 3C, but that was eventually traced to a dodgy wiring joint (by me) so not the fault of the ignition.

I wouldn't consider any other igniton now. The programming is dead simple and not at all intimidating. Yes, it's possible to put in the wrong advance map, but the same can be said of ignitions that come with pre-programmed curves if you select the wrong curve. Actually, I reckon you're less likely to cock-up the Ignitech advance curve because you can see it on the screen while you're programming it. The more advanced Ignitech programming features like the various dwell control parameters are probably useful if you have a 18,000 RPM race engine, but you can ignore all that for our old bikes. The default settings are perfectly OK. Even if you do enter something stupid in the program, there's a default restore button to get you out of trouble.

Coupled to the Redax/Lex Hall-effect trigger board (and the associated alternator upgrade for series 1 triples), you won't find a better solution for our old Laverdas.

In case you're wondering, this is not a paid endorsement. I have no financial interest in Redax or Initech.
 
I do like the Ignitech for it's versatility and ease of programming, have fitted over a dozen to various Laverdas, a Guzzi, even my mates Dniper. Excellent well made and robust. Requires a little basic knowledge to install and set up but pretty straightforward otherwise.

  Keith
 
Rob said:
Chaps

I know quite a few of you have used the Ignitech TCIP4 'Sparker' unit.  A couple of questions relating to 120 degree motors -

1.  It appears that the TCIP4 is only configured for two trigger inputs.  So what do you do with the redundant third trigger input (I'm using a Sasche trigger board for 120 degree applications).  Or do you just use the one trigger input?
2.  Does the Ignitech work out for itself what it needs to do...what map or configuration is required?
3.  What is the Ignitech Laverda 120 degree map expecting in terms of input(s)

So in summary, what is needed to get an Ignitech TCIP4 working on a 120 degree engine in terms of input and config?!

Thanks
Click to expand...
The so called "Full" version of TCIP4 should be used, it has four coil outputs. The "Standard" version has only two outputs for ignition coils, that is enought for 180 machine having one single and one double coils.

1. The Ignitech has only two inputs. Pick-Up from cylinder 1 is connected to channel 1 input and the pick-ups 2 and 3 are connected in parallel to channel 2. This is for 120 degree machine.

2. It could have an ignition map that alters the advance only by engine speed or also with load. The load needs to be given to Ignitech by one electrical signal. The signal could be taken from TPS, MAP or both for example. If TPS and MAP are used simultaneuously, the signals from those should be combined somehow. Also MAP sensors signal has some much variation it needs an electrical filter. Here in Finland we have used an configuration that the +5V is fed to Maps sensor, the map sensor output if fed to electrical filter and then the signal is fed to TPS potentiometer. The configuration drops out the MAP signal on Full throttle. The TPS positions should be teached to Ignitech when the bike is switched on and the computer is connected to it. The throttle is fully closed and that position is then programmed and the same thing to wide open throttle.

3. If you want to alter the curve by load, only one signal to pin 6. Pin 17 is a regulated +5V output for sensors. Some of the Sense GND pins should be used for grounding sensors.

The minimum configurations is that it should have +12V (from kill switch for example, kill switch has it's feed from ignition lock) and ground, inputs from pick-ups and it has outputs for coils. Of course the program should be programmed it first and the base advance should be set first with a stroboscope that the degrees on your computer match the real regrees.
 
Cannot see how to fire a 120? triple with only 2 channels, unless taking a second wasted spark into account somewhere in the neighbouring cylinders' cycle. 

piet
 
The idea is very simple. It is enought when the sparker knows when lobe passes the pick-ups and know which signal is from the first pick-up. The Ignitech is a microprocessor based system and it counts. When it got the first signal to channel one it knows it is the cylinder number 1. When it takes the second signal from channel 2 it knows it is for cylinder 2 and one again to channel 2 it is cylinder three and then it starts again. The system is a waste spark system as the original BTZ but won't give any other waste sparks, separate outputs are used for each ignition coil.

Of course in this system the Ignitech should get first one signal from pick-up 1 on start before it could count and therefore won't give any sparks before that.
 
sfcpiet said:
Cannot see how to fire a 120? triple with only 2 channels, unless taking a second wasted spark into account somewhere in the neighbouring cylinders' cycle. 

piet
Click to expand...

Indeed - but that's exactly how you set up the box - quoting Jiř?

Signal from hall pickup of cyl. 1 connect to pin 9.

Signal from hall pickup of cyl. 2 connect to pin 20.

Signal from hall pickup of cyl. 3 connect to pin 20.

I think the black art is knowing that the ignition is timed with cylinder 1 at TDC.

 
TCIP4 Standard version has 2 input channels and 2 output channels for coils.
TCIP4 Full version is a system having 2 input channels and 4 output channels for coils.
Therefore both can be used for 180 but only the four channel version for 120 in where one output if left blank.

There is also some other input and outputs for kill switch, shift light etc.

This is how I wired it. There was also some tricks with grounding with adapter cable to BTZ connectors that is not shown on table.
1 Sparker coil 1 output
2 Sparker coil 3 output
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 MAP+TPS Signal input
7 Sense GND
8 -
9 Pick-up 1+
10 Sparker coil 2 output
11 -
12 Shift Light (on second accessory output channel, grounds)
13 +12V
14 GND
15 -
16 Sense GND
17 MAP+TPS +5V Output
18 -
19 -
20 Pick-up 2+, 3+ (in parallel)
Pick-ups and sensors should be grounded to Sense GND pins.

Rob said:
I think the black art is knowing that the ignition is timed with cylinder 1 at TDC.
Click to expand...
I programmed the Ignitech first that way it will give always zero degrees advance and raised the slides a littlebit to idle.
Then the spark should be at the zero degree mark with a stroboscope. This could be done rotating the pick-up plate as the normal way to adjust timing.
 
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