Ignitech Ignition - Inductive sensor Vs Hall effect

G

ghwallice

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Location
Ipswich
I've been out of this field for a couple of decades, but I'm trying to work out the advantage of Hall Effect over Inductive sensors when Fitting an Ignitech TCIP4 v88.

Current OEM inductive sensor output 6V p to p, sine wave.

Hall effect much more responsive to magnetic change but output is in millivolts, so requires a  ( amplifying?) compensation circuit in an Ignitech. Special order, extra $, and the result would depend on the design quality of the amplifier?

Ignitech ignitions suitable for inductive sensors, by far the most common application. The system would still have, I suppose, have compensation circuits to turn sine wave into square wave, and therefore digital application.

On a 40 year old bike, does it actually make any difference??

What are your thoughts?

Regards, Greg
 
Hi Greg
Why reinvent the wheel when its not necessary, Red has kits ready to go for your bike  :D plus if you try to use your old pickups is doable but they will have a use by date so will only cause you grief down the track, ask me how I know  :D
 
Hey Brett,
Greg lives like 3 klms from our workshop but does not want to outlay the bucks to buy a complete replacement system so is trying to do everything on the cheap

Greg,
we use Hall Effect triggers as they are around 8mm high and by grafting on a 3 phase x 300 watt charging system to replace the standard 130-150 watt single phase unit we have to conform to an ever decreasing space envelope
also we use Hall Effect triggers as they have a higher temperature operating envelope than Optical triggers which would also fit into the space we have left if we wanted to use them
in fact the first systems we designed were Optical but we changed to Hall Effect

as you want to retain the standard BTZ charging coils that you found in our rubbish bin the other day than just stay with the Bosch Inductive triggers presuming they work and order the box direct from Ignitech, all of the Ignitech boxes we keep in stock will only work on Hall Effect or Optical triggers as they are set for square wave signal

and by the way, cost from Ignitech for a square wave box or a sine wave box is the same, you just need to specify it when you order





 
Optical triggers more affected by oil/crap flinging around in there if your oil seal is leaking.
 
Most Hall effect sensors on current production has amplifiers and Schmitt triggers integrated inside. Schmitt trigger is a sort of simple wave form processing unit based on positive feedback and hysteresis, it gives nice square wave output. Therefore output levels on most sensors run nice square wave between just a littlebit over zero volt and just a littlebit below supply voltage.
 
MotoJouni said:
Most Hall effect sensors on current production has amplifiers and Schmitt triggers integrated inside. Schmitt trigger is a sort of simple wave form processing unit based on positive feedback and hysteresis, it gives nice square wave output.
Click to expand...

Vague memory of Schmitt triggers and their function from my studies in 1984. I will revamp. It will be exciting to see the changes technology has made! I'm amazed at the changes in a basic CRO between then and now!

Regards, Greg
 
ghwallice said:
Vague memory of Schmitt triggers and their function from my studies in 1984. I will revamp. It will be exciting to see the changes technology has made! I'm amazed at the changes in a basic CRO between then and now!

Regards, Greg
Click to expand...

Lots of changes Greg!  Did you hear a man can now marry another man? 
 
Just for info, I recently came across a faulty Ignitech ignition box. So they're not infallible! :o

It's a TCIP4 that I fitted to a mate's Guzzi a couple of years ago. The bike runs fine and all the ignition programming works as it should. But he's been modifying the bike and bought a new set of gauges. The tacho supplied in the kit is designed to be fed from a negative terminal on the coil primary, and is set up with 1:2 pulse frequency (1 pulse every 2 revs). That would be OK on most Guzzis that are fitted with a 1/2 speed distributor, but this model (93 Cali) has a crank sensor for the ignition so it fires every revolution with a wasted spark on the exhaust stroke. When we hooked up the tacho it read double the engine speed.

No problem said I. We can run it off the Ignitech's tacho output which is programmable for whatever frequency the tacho wants. We hook it up to the Ignitech tacho feed (pin 15), started the engine and didn't get so much as a flicker of the tacho needle.

After a bit of head scratching and emails to Ignitech, it was confirmed that the tacho output on this particular ignition is not working. Unfortunately the unit was one month past the 2-year warranty. 

If anyone is interested, here's a bit of technical info on the tacho output (pin 15), some of which isn't in the Ignitech manual.
It sends out a 12V pulse in the form of a square wave with 50% duty cycle. That means it switches between 0 and 12V, with 12V for 50% of the time and 0 for 50%. As a diagnostic check to see if it's working, you can measure the output voltage with a multimeter. It should measure 6V (the average between 0 and 12) when the engine is running. It doesn't matter whether your meter is set on AC or DC because the voltage is always positive. You'll read 6V either way. I did that test on anther Ignitech box and that's exactly what I measured.

But in this case we got zero Volts. The Ignitech bloke said the output transistor had probably failed. He said it could get fried if pin 15 is connected to a 12V supply, which is worth knowing. But this particular one hadn't been connected to anything before so who knows why it failed?

 
"After a bit of head scratching and emails to Ignitech" Lucky you. I have sent three emails with no response trying to buy stuff since early September. Now they have an address on the website I printed the emails and posted them in snail mail.
I have a Kozo instrument and the tacho running off pin 15 gives and erratic reading, showing nothing, then redlining, then half revs etc. I?m going to try fitting a resistor in the line.
As an observation re the title of this thread. Jiri said that for the SF with the ignition at half crank speed and the available diameter in the ignition cover, an inductive unit would struggle and it was best to use a Hall system. A 180 triple ignition has crank speed and more space.
 
Tippie said:
"After a bit of head scratching and emails to Ignitech" Lucky you. I have sent three emails with no response trying to buy stuff since early September. Now they have an address on the website I printed the emails and posted them in snail mail.
I have a Kozo instrument and the tacho running off pin 15 gives and erratic reading, showing nothing, then redlining, then half revs etc. I?m going to try fitting a resistor in the line.
As an observation re the title of this thread. Jiri said that for the SF with the ignition at half crank speed and the available diameter in the ignition cover, an inductive unit would struggle and it was best to use a Hall system. A 180 triple ignition has crank speed and more space.
Click to expand...
Hmm perhaps they dont like you..........there is a guy at work who is into Karts.. he is always communicating with them....you think bikes are fast........you should see his lap speeds at the creek  :D and he has a 125 in the thing....

tell me was the Koso ( am assuming you misspelt as I have never heard of Kozo or am I missing something here ) working before fitting the ignitech ? To me from what you are saying sounds more in the instrument than the Ignetech..
There are settings in the ignitech but then again I would imagine that there are settings in your Koso also... the ignitech is fairly straight forward ffs if we can drive the good ole Veglia ( which really likes a different shape signal ) out of it, then with you hi tech Koso should be a breeze....

Here is the extract Tachometer output.
The tachometer output is compatible with most dashboard instruments used on motorcycles. The number of
pulses per one revolution is set in the "DCCDIP2.EXE" application. what have you this set at ?
The tachometer is supplied with +12 V against GND. The tachometer input is connected to the connector (outlet
no. 15).
Are you able to scope the signal from the box ? you will soon see the output signal and if an issue or not
 
G'day Tippie, I had exactly the same problem when I fitted a Scitsu tachometer to my RGS based track bike.

I think Brett is on the right track. The problem wasn't the output signal from the Ignitech, but "noise" on the 12V power supply to the tacho (I chose one that was powered from the bike's electrical system rather than one with its own internal battery). The noise comes from the alternator, voltage regulator and ignition system. A big lead acid battery might have damped some of it out but I was running a little lithium battery.

The Scitsu tacho bloke (Dylan Stuchbury <tachos@scitsu.com>) suggested I try powering the tacho from a separate supply (9V dry cell battery) and it worked perfectly. At the time, I was thinking that it was just an interim measure to help identify the problem, my intention being to make up a little noise filtering circuit for the 12V supply as a permanent solution. But the 9V battery is still on the bike 2 years later. It's good for about 100 hours of tacho running.
 
Some very innaresting reading here. I took a punt and bought a Triumph digi tacho for practically nothing when getting some other rear brake stuff online from a wrecker. Sounds like it'll wire in fine to the TCIP4. I just need to find a way of overlaying a Lav logo to cover the Triumph one on the face!! The 9V fix is a ripper, Cam. I'll keep that firmly in mind.

Hall vs Optical  - I'm thinking a twin with half crank speed plus a relatively cool (c/w triples) placement outside the primary cover means it should be fine with optical. Obviously Red's Hall effect setups work without any problem in SFs, so could go either way. I'm doing a build on another SF soon so will get one of Red's setups and compare.

Everyone seems to have different stories in dealings with Ignitech - I also had considerable trouble, delays, non-responses after exchanging several emails, until in frustration I had a Czech friend email them in Czech and my email thread took up as if the 3 month hiatus had never happened!!
 
I'm by no means an expert in electronics or ignition systems, but I believe the advantage of the Hall effect trigger is that it produces a square wave output that is independent of engine speed so you get a very reliable sensing of crank position.

Inductive sensors (also known as variable reluctance or VR) works more like an alternator in that the signal voltage generated in the sensor coil ramps up to a peak and then falls away again as the lobe passes. So the point at which the ignition decides it's a signal to fire is not as clearly defined as a square wave. Also, because of the "reluctance" part of VR trigger, it responds differently at different frequencies, so it has its own built-in advance curve. Actually, I believe it's more like a retardation curve with increasing revs.

There's nothing wrong with VR sensors so long as the ignition system accounts for the variables (that's where the programming capability of Ignitech systems is really handy). The fact that many of them in our 40-year old Laverdas are still in operation is testimony to their ruggedness.

As an indication of just how much a VR sensor's trigger point can vary with speed, check out the chart below which shows the correction I had to program into my Ducati. The actual trigger point was measured with a strobe and degree wheel. It's VR sensors must have a lot of reluctance.

 

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Local guy running an Ignitech on  racebike had an odd problem crop up which is worth knowing about...
If the input voltage rises above 18V the system shuts down....

He had a faulty regulator on an abortion of a wiring harness - it had originally been an injected motor but gave so much trouble he put a carb on it. It was an import from Aussie - so of course has become known as the underarm Honda....
 
Dellortoman said:
I wouldn't expect any electronic ignition box to be happy with 18V.
Click to expand...

In my experience, some actually are. Some of the early jap ignitions had a pretty wide safety margin built in - and just as well too. I know of one Yamaha twin owner who solved his cold starting problems by arranging for an additional 6v battery to be switched in when he hit the starter - and yes, it gave 18V to the ignition too. I wouldn't have recommended it....

The point here is that the 18V trigger level isn't mentioned in any literature with the ignitech - and switch off, switch on and it's going again....mysterious cutting out comes back as soon as 18V is reached again...
 
The main point is that the Ignitech works a treat, my tacho problem is very secondary.
I had the Kozso (sic) on the bike when it still had points and went through hoops trying to get the tacho to read realiably, but the speedo is spot on always. I tried all the possible alternatives from the instructions. I had thought that the signal from the Ignitech would have given a perfect signal. It did too, for the first few hundred km, then became errattic again. Sometimes it reads spot on, then suddenly flashes up and these overrev/change gear now lights all go off, then it reads half speed, then nothing, then perfect again. It is wired fairly directly but there could be a poor contact somewhere, my money is on e/m interference though. It has permanent backlight when running which may be hard on a 9v battery but I could always try it. Anyway, enough off thread hijacks, this issue is irrelevant to the thread.
I just hope Ignitech get back to me now and I can buy the systems I need.
 
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