Jota Battery
- Thread starter Dingocooke
- Start date
D
Davo
Guest
Dellortoman said:
That assumes a) that passengers are aware something untoward has happened in the cockpit and b) if they did become aware they were flying in the wrong direction that they were in range of a mobile tower (if the plane was not equipped for mobile phone use). Not too many mobile towers in the middle of the Indian Ocean.
And the Oz Govt appears to be swinging back towards deliberate pilot sabotage and the plane flying up to 160km further than originally plotted.
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
a) Yes, passengers may not be aware that something sinister was going on in the cockpit, but the co-pilot would have been. Unless it was a suicide pact that they'd both agreed to, he'd have resisted. Possibly unsuccessfully
b) Don't need mobile phone service in the Indian Ocean. Things first went awry when the plane was still within mobile range between Malaysia and Vietnam. By the time it got to the Indian Ocean, nobody was capable of using a phone.
Obviously nobody knows what really happened and we may never find out. Speculation is somewhat pointless, but people like to speculate. All of the theories have holes in them and some are utterly crazy. Conspiracy theories continue to be bandied around by the media because that's what sells newspapers. But in the absence of any real evidence, I suppose it's a case of applying Occam's razor and the simplest theory is a hypoxia scenario, but it too has holes in it.
One of the more bizarre theories is that the plane landed on the moon
b) Don't need mobile phone service in the Indian Ocean. Things first went awry when the plane was still within mobile range between Malaysia and Vietnam. By the time it got to the Indian Ocean, nobody was capable of using a phone.
Obviously nobody knows what really happened and we may never find out. Speculation is somewhat pointless, but people like to speculate. All of the theories have holes in them and some are utterly crazy. Conspiracy theories continue to be bandied around by the media because that's what sells newspapers. But in the absence of any real evidence, I suppose it's a case of applying Occam's razor and the simplest theory is a hypoxia scenario, but it too has holes in it.
One of the more bizarre theories is that the plane landed on the moon
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
Getting back to the thread topic ...
I went to an info session on lithium batteries this evening. My local battery man (Matthew from Eastern Shore Batteries) had one of his colleagues in town from Enerdrive in Brisbane, who do a lot of work with lithium batteries, so he organised the session for a few invited customers and tradies.
I learned a whole bunch of stuff about lithium batteries. Although the bloke doesn't deal with vehicle starting batteries himself (he sells power systems for caravans and boats) he was aware of the market and products that are out there.
I don't want to recount the whole conversation, but here are a few salient points:
One useful thing he said was that any decent lithium battery, including SSB, Shorai and Fusion, will have its own built-in BMS (battery management system) to protect it against over-charge or under charge. The BMS will allow it to be charged using a lead-acid battery charger. The lesson there is don't buy a cheapo no-brand battery. It may not have any kind of protection circuitry.
They will self-discharge quicker than lead acid, so may need topping up from time to time.
BUT! Don't leave a lithium battery on a float charger. Unlike lead acid batteries, they don't have a float cycle. They need to be somewhere in their cycle between minimum charge (around 20%) and fully charged. Within that range they can be discharging, charging or doing nothing. But when fully charged to 100%, the charger needs to be switched off completely. Floating will most likely cook and damage them.
Also, don't let a lithium battery go completely flat. It won't recover.
Getting rid of old lithium batteries is an environmental issue. Ordinary lead-acid battery recyclers can't deal with lithium. You need to find someone who can, which may be a problem if you live in Woop Woop.
I went to an info session on lithium batteries this evening. My local battery man (Matthew from Eastern Shore Batteries) had one of his colleagues in town from Enerdrive in Brisbane, who do a lot of work with lithium batteries, so he organised the session for a few invited customers and tradies.
I learned a whole bunch of stuff about lithium batteries. Although the bloke doesn't deal with vehicle starting batteries himself (he sells power systems for caravans and boats) he was aware of the market and products that are out there.
I don't want to recount the whole conversation, but here are a few salient points:
One useful thing he said was that any decent lithium battery, including SSB, Shorai and Fusion, will have its own built-in BMS (battery management system) to protect it against over-charge or under charge. The BMS will allow it to be charged using a lead-acid battery charger. The lesson there is don't buy a cheapo no-brand battery. It may not have any kind of protection circuitry.
They will self-discharge quicker than lead acid, so may need topping up from time to time.
BUT! Don't leave a lithium battery on a float charger. Unlike lead acid batteries, they don't have a float cycle. They need to be somewhere in their cycle between minimum charge (around 20%) and fully charged. Within that range they can be discharging, charging or doing nothing. But when fully charged to 100%, the charger needs to be switched off completely. Floating will most likely cook and damage them.
Also, don't let a lithium battery go completely flat. It won't recover.
Getting rid of old lithium batteries is an environmental issue. Ordinary lead-acid battery recyclers can't deal with lithium. You need to find someone who can, which may be a problem if you live in Woop Woop.
Dingocooke
Senior member
- Location
- England
Well, like Andy, I'm confused now too! It's almost tempting to just buy an old school Yuasa and be done with it!
I'm also confused about the mains charger I've been sold by the company that supplied the Red top for my Vincent as the 'right' charger for the battery.
I looked at the output and its 13 point something volts and 1 amp.
Differing advice as to whether fancy battery will live on the '79 charging system and light the fires too! I have Todd ignition, which I believe is like a Boyer; (I know they are voltage sensitive, as I have one on my Commando and TR6C)
I guess I have to go back to County Batteries, and ask them about the charger and a battery for the Jota!
I'm also confused about the mains charger I've been sold by the company that supplied the Red top for my Vincent as the 'right' charger for the battery.
I looked at the output and its 13 point something volts and 1 amp.
Differing advice as to whether fancy battery will live on the '79 charging system and light the fires too! I have Todd ignition, which I believe is like a Boyer; (I know they are voltage sensitive, as I have one on my Commando and TR6C)
I guess I have to go back to County Batteries, and ask them about the charger and a battery for the Jota!
Dingocooke
Senior member
- Location
- England
OK, I spoke to my local battery people, County Batteries (been using them longer than I care to remember and they've been going even longer; 45 years!)
They say, for AGM/Gel charging, you need to pick a charger that puts out no more than 10% of the amp hour rating of the battery. So a 20 amp hour battery needs no more than a 2 amp charger, he went on to say, a lesser amp charger (say 1 amp) would be fine also, just take twice as long.
Chargers suitable for AGM/Gel were also just fine for lead acid, but you needed a specific charger for Lithium LiFePO4 etc., but there are some chargers (like the Sealey one) that will do all of them.
He said a lot of batteries die when on a maintenance hook up, because they overheat (too high charge current).
I asked about certain batteries not being suitable for certain charge systems, and he laughed, said they had been told that too, but in reality they have put just about any battery on any charge system, and not had a battery problem!
I appreciate this is probably not news to anyone here, but it was for me; live and learn etc.
They say, for AGM/Gel charging, you need to pick a charger that puts out no more than 10% of the amp hour rating of the battery. So a 20 amp hour battery needs no more than a 2 amp charger, he went on to say, a lesser amp charger (say 1 amp) would be fine also, just take twice as long.
Chargers suitable for AGM/Gel were also just fine for lead acid, but you needed a specific charger for Lithium LiFePO4 etc., but there are some chargers (like the Sealey one) that will do all of them.
He said a lot of batteries die when on a maintenance hook up, because they overheat (too high charge current).
I asked about certain batteries not being suitable for certain charge systems, and he laughed, said they had been told that too, but in reality they have put just about any battery on any charge system, and not had a battery problem!
I appreciate this is probably not news to anyone here, but it was for me; live and learn etc.
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
The 'advice ' you've been given is from a company that makes it's money selling batteries. QED!
helicopterjim
Hero member
- Location
- near Lone Butte, BC, Canada
Rob said:
Do you have 'proof' of that?
I had a hard to start cold issue, had the Gel sealed battery load tested 3 times and all said it was better than 90%,it was 3 or 4 years old, even the distributer said that it tested fine and yet it wouldn't start the bike cold. Great when hot. In the end I bit the bullet and bought a new battery and that fixed my cold starting issue. The point is even the battery importer and distributer wasn't as cluey as he thought.Thats Federal Batterys , been around since I was a kid
Dingocooke
Senior member
- Location
- England
Rob said:
True they are, but in defence of them, I went in prepared to shell out good money on a better charger, and their advice was 'don't waste your money'
They've always given me good advice, not always advice that got them a sale either, so I respect what they say. Old school shop, and prices that compete with the web!
I'll wait until the roads are less salty and see how flush I feel for a new battery!!
Dingocooke
Senior member
- Location
- England
LJ said:
I google'd around a lot, and there are tales of people with failed AGM batteries using CTEK's, Optimates etc. especially amongst the car boys, but there are so many different chargers from each manufacturer it's a minefield to even choose a charger :-[
Dingocooke
Senior member
- Location
- England
Paul H said:
Actually I think that's the nub of all the ' (insert charger name) killed my battery' stuff I came across when trying to work out what battery needs what charger, there was a number of posters on the Ultima forum that killed their factory fitted Ody's, and all of them had left the charger on 'maintenance' over winter.
I now suspect that I killed the gel battery on my Egli the same way der..
Pedro
New member
- Location
- Nelson, New Zealand
Hi, I have been following this thread a little and am going to try a Shorai Battery. As recommended.
Shorai have gone a step further and developed a LiFePO4 cell that does not require a special Lithium charger to prevent them going out of balance. A recent test by a customer revealed no measurable cell imbalance after four years of regular use without a Lithium charger.
http://www.shorai.co.nz/blog/welcome-to-2016/
A Capacity / Balance Checker and the Chinese copy.
http://www.amainhobbies.com/rc-cars-trucks/hyperion-eos-sentry-v2-battery-checker-hp-eossentryv2/p222019
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Digital-Battery-Capacity-Checker-RC-CellMeter-7-For-LiPo-LiFe-Li-ion-NiMH-Nicd/32416874135.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_2,searchweb201602_4_505_506_503_504_10034_10020_502_10001_10002_10017_10010_10005_10006_10011_10003_10021_10004_10022_10009_10008_10018_10019,searchweb201603_9&btsid=e84a6a8f-e275-4a3d-89e3-d5a277bbeb41
Shorai have gone a step further and developed a LiFePO4 cell that does not require a special Lithium charger to prevent them going out of balance. A recent test by a customer revealed no measurable cell imbalance after four years of regular use without a Lithium charger.
http://www.shorai.co.nz/blog/welcome-to-2016/
A Capacity / Balance Checker and the Chinese copy.
http://www.amainhobbies.com/rc-cars-trucks/hyperion-eos-sentry-v2-battery-checker-hp-eossentryv2/p222019
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Digital-Battery-Capacity-Checker-RC-CellMeter-7-For-LiPo-LiFe-Li-ion-NiMH-Nicd/32416874135.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_2,searchweb201602_4_505_506_503_504_10034_10020_502_10001_10002_10017_10010_10005_10006_10011_10003_10021_10004_10022_10009_10008_10018_10019,searchweb201603_9&btsid=e84a6a8f-e275-4a3d-89e3-d5a277bbeb41
Dingocooke
Senior member
- Location
- England
I found a Shorai here in the UK, great weight saving , and I like the whole idea, but at ?332 against ?84 for an Odyssey, it looks like an Odyssey for me! I'm sure they'll get cheaper, so when the Odyssey dies..... 8)
Spent ages reading the various forums in the US on Motorcycle Battery Choices, the net of this seems to be as follows:
a) Lithium-ion Batteries (LiFePO4 or LFP) - Good for starting, but v-bad if left to dis-charge fully, avoid if left with alarms etc that discharge over time
b) AGM (Advanced Glass Matt) Sealed Gel battery's - Good for colder temperatures, will tolerate less frequent use
c) Traditional Lead Acid - Sealed or Not - Require topping up, with battery water, issues managing Acid, spills, but cost effective, reliable
a) LFP = Are light, small, high performance but critically require suitable chargers and built in regulation - over charging (or fully discharging) NOT good
also seem fraught for bikes used infrequently, or that discharge via leakage etc, e.g. better for moderns used regularly or race bikes (which are
typically dis-connected when not in use)
b) AGM - Seem to be good compromise, sustain performance better in colder weather and with less frequent use, more expensive than traditional LA.
c) Lead Acid - A good choice for budget constrained, assuming still a quality brand, appropriate rating, right charging system / regime etc
Refer: https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/
Wrong management, incorrect charging systems (Lead Acid or AGM with LFP Batteries) can cause fires, be careful, I spoke to a local Custom / Classic specialist where a Lithium-ion battery built into the casing of a classic 1960's BMW had exploded, due to an incorrect trickle charging type / system.
Anyone had different advice, it seems a bit of nightmare, tomorrow I'll ring Richard at Slaters to get his PoV, as the original UK Laverda importer
a) Lithium-ion Batteries (LiFePO4 or LFP) - Good for starting, but v-bad if left to dis-charge fully, avoid if left with alarms etc that discharge over time
b) AGM (Advanced Glass Matt) Sealed Gel battery's - Good for colder temperatures, will tolerate less frequent use
c) Traditional Lead Acid - Sealed or Not - Require topping up, with battery water, issues managing Acid, spills, but cost effective, reliable
a) LFP = Are light, small, high performance but critically require suitable chargers and built in regulation - over charging (or fully discharging) NOT good
also seem fraught for bikes used infrequently, or that discharge via leakage etc, e.g. better for moderns used regularly or race bikes (which are
typically dis-connected when not in use)
b) AGM - Seem to be good compromise, sustain performance better in colder weather and with less frequent use, more expensive than traditional LA.
c) Lead Acid - A good choice for budget constrained, assuming still a quality brand, appropriate rating, right charging system / regime etc
Refer: https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/
Wrong management, incorrect charging systems (Lead Acid or AGM with LFP Batteries) can cause fires, be careful, I spoke to a local Custom / Classic specialist where a Lithium-ion battery built into the casing of a classic 1960's BMW had exploded, due to an incorrect trickle charging type / system.
Anyone had different advice, it seems a bit of nightmare, tomorrow I'll ring Richard at Slaters to get his PoV, as the original UK Laverda importer