Life with a Zane Part IV ?A New Hope?.

Romeo.D said:
For this money i keep my old batery
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... and loose some bio-mass instead, right?  :D

I just thought I write them a mail saying: I removed 20 Kilos off the bike in its ready-to-race configuration and it did not cost me any money; even more to that, it SAVED me money, as I spent less for food and drinks...!"
:D :D :D

But if - like friend Michael St?cker f.e. - you are light, your bike (a modified 500) is lightened to a degree where it's beyond getting it lighter anymore without making it to fragil, these extra 5 Kilos do make a significant difference.
 
Laverdalothar said:
Romeo.D said:
For this money i keep my old batery
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... and loose some bio-mass instead, right?  :D

I just thought I write them a mail saying: I removed 20 Kilos off the bike in its ready-to-race configuration and it did not cost me any money; even more to that, it SAVED me money, as I spent less for food and drinks...!"
:D :D :D
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Frend of mine was atackd with titan parts instaling on bevel Duc , idea was to make bike lighter (faster for racing ) my sugesstion was to lose 10kg , same oppinion as yours .
 
So, the questions are,
Will the Bosch one fit and will it be any better than the 4 brush modified one?
If it does, (and this next bit depends on whether you can get your hands on one) would the cost make it a viable/realistic alternative to the OCT modification?
Impecunious Dave. 
;)
 
Laverdalothar said:
Hi Craig,

well - no... The leads get warm because the the starter motor does not turn ...
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I hear what you're saying Lothar, believe me.  And I accept that poor gearing is most likely the root cause of the problem.  However, I can only report what I found.  I went thru 4 stages:

1.  New brushes:  Hmmm ... At least it now turns  ::).  But still crap.

2.  New battery (Odyssey):  Better.  But still needs a few jabs, and preferably on a warm day. And boy, those cables are hot!

3.  New leads: Ah!  Much, much better.  And cool cables ... 8)

4.  New battery (Westco):  Perfect!

I started up my Formula about 6 weeks ago, not having used it for 8 months.  Went first jab.  FIRST jab!!

And the biggest single difference was increasing the size of the cables.

Ciao

Craig
 
sfcpiet said:
True, the starter isn't up to the job <snip>  Most modern bikes have puny little starters coupled to a tiny battery, they do it with the appropriate gear ratio!
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+1.  Apparently, the same little Denso motor burns out its brushes on the contemporary Ducrappi (900SS, I think) to which they were also fitted.

Ciao

Craig
 
"SPIDER" said:
Will the Bosch one fit ...
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Hi Impecunious Dave,

The only replacement motor I can remember hearing about was a story of someone who - allegedly - fitted a unit of a Hyabusa.  The way the story went was that he had to make some mods - turned down the casing, I think.  But don't quote me, 'cos the story only ever came second-hand, never from the guy himself.

But, and without wishing to upset Lothar  :D, over nearly 10 years now of being on the Yahoo! list, I have read many personal testimonies* of the benefits of upping the leads.  And have done so myself with good results ...

Ciao

Craig

* Here's one such, from 2006:

"Hello everyone,

For those that might be interested, I have successfully gotten rid  of the problematic starting of my 750s.  Up until now I have had to stab the starter up to a dozen times before she would start... but now she fires on the first stab or at worst the second :-)

Here's what I have done from original... One step at a time and the results:

1. Replaced battery with Hawker Oddessy dry cell unit - no help at all except more starting attempts before going flat.

2. Learned to break clutch free before starting by changing into first then with clutch in rolling the bike back and forward then reselecting neutral - no real help, would still take up to a dozen stabs of the starter to fire up.

3. Replaced original spark leads and plugs with Magncore units - no change in starting but once running the bike feels smoother (could be psycho-sematic though in the hope that money was well spent)

4. Cleaned out starter motor and retensioned the reasonably unworn brushes - Absolutley no change in starting at all even though I was convinced this would do it.

5. Replaced spark plugs with Iridium units - again no change in starting but bike feels smoother (read psycho comment previous).

6. Installed new heavier gauge earth lead and battery positive to solenoid lead as supplied by Lorin of this list (no time to install solenoid to starter lead as well) - no change.

7. Installed new heavier upgraded solenoid to starter motor lead, without removing starter motor, it can be done and I have large hands (10 inch span) - Ya!! One or at most two stabs of the button and she fires up!!!!!

Each of these steps has been done over a period of 2 years with up to several months and no less than a week between changes and finally the battery cables have made the difference.

I should also add that she now starts every first or second time WITHOUT doing the clutch freeing procedure!!!!

So my advice to everyone, UPGRADE YOUR BATTERY CABLES, you will save a lot of stuffing around.

A very happy and relieved...

Mick Baker, who no longer has to be embarrassed about 'hoping' his bike will start in the presence of Jap cr@p that starts first time every time... you can't see it but I'm ginning from ear to ear right now :)

PS. Thanks heaps, Lorin."

 
Guys, believe me, I went down the same route and am sure that for a standard 750 S, this will do the trick. Here is what i did in the past 4 years of ownership with my Formula 2000:

Bike always needed 3 - 5 pushes to make it turn, very rarely did turn first push.
-loaded the battery always fully - changed it to 2-3 pushes, maybe 3 out of 10 it started first push
-upgraded the cables (was really my first thing to change...). Result: cables kept cooler, bike started (fresh battery assumed) 5-6 out of 10 times on first button. Still had issues though and sometimes did not turn the engine.
-changed the way of starting when cold: first engaged clutch, put in first gear, tried to free up clutch by pushing the bike forward and backward, when free pushed the button. 7-8 out of 10 it fired up right away
-changed the brushes which were almost worn out due to several unsuccessful attempts to start the bike. almost no change

I will report back when I have installed the different gearing, but the reports from people that have done the modification are: 100% successful starts on 1st push, which is quite convincing...

keep you posted.
 
You guys are sure making these bikes sound like too much bother.  :D
 
Does the Formula have differeent gearing? They always seem to start at the first touch of the button.

I'm interested in the reults of your efforts. Also in knowing how difficult the kit is to fit.
 
Yeah, but they have loads of character Pat and when running sweetly are great fun to ride, (in a different way to the Breganze Triples at least)
As I have said before, the Triple Engine knocks socks off the Zane Twin, (in my opinion) but the Zanes handling makes up for its deficiencies in the power plant department!.
 
Kermit said:
Does the Formula have differeent gearing? They always seem to start at the first touch of the button.

I'm interested in the reults of your efforts. Also in knowing how difficult the kit is to fit.
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gearing is the same on the Formula, compression is different as are the cams. Especially the 2000 spec bikes seam to have more problems, maybe due to the different cam profiles?!?
 
Not sure if my 1999 Formula has better leads or not - it certainly sounds like it may do as it always starts first push of the button, hot cold or whatever. Did on the "old" standard type battery. Does now on a PC680 (which is just much easier to get in the battery tray and lasts all winter without needing to be charged...)

Never need to free the clutch. Just switch on and leave until the clicking of the fuel pump stops. Then touch the button and she starts 99 times out of 100.

--
Dick
 
The Bosch starter will not fit without major surgery.

The starter gearing is the same across the range.  

Although the Formula has a higher CR, the hotter cams also have more valve overlap, giving the starter a better chance of spinning the engine.  It's the soft cooking engines that have the greater starting problems.

Freeing the clutch will have no effect whatsoever on the starting abilities, unless you have the bike in gear upon starting..... :o

Fitting the kit is quite straightforward, the intermediate and freewheel gears are swapped for different ones.  The boss (in the generator/starter drive cover) for the intermediate gear shaft needs to be slimmed in diameter to accomodate the new intermediate gear.

3patC said:
You guys are sure making these bikes sound like too much bother.  :D
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Pat,
They're a can of worms...... :D

piet
 
Laverdalothar said:
check your compression... :o
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Well it certainly goes better than my Jota Sprint - and that claims to generate 75hp at the rear wheel so the Formula can't be far off right!

Ask Crispin and CJ who took it round Europe a couple of years back... As seen in the Perfect Corner videos...

--
Dick
 
sfcpiet said:
Freeing the clutch will have no effect whatsoever on the starting abilities, unless you have the bike in gear upon starting..... :o
piet
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Piet, correct me if I am wrong, please, but if you leave the clutch lever alone, at least the main-gear-shaft gets turned with the engine and delivers resistance - no? So - theoretically, if you pull the clutch lever, you separate the gearbox from the engine, which will reduce the restriction, right? Might not be much, but my personal feeling is it starts better if you pull the clutch lever (if it separates).
 
sfcpiet said:
Fitting the kit is quite straightforward, the intermediate and freewheel gears are swapped for different ones.  The boss (in the generator/starter drive cover) for the intermediate gear shaft needs to be slimmed in diameter to accomodate the new intermediate gear.
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Forgive what my be a silly question, but are these the gears that are visible when the generator cover is removed. The gears that "connect" with the starter motor.

If so, I guess that the kit can be fitted without removing the engine.

Any photo's you have would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Kermit

 
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