L
lemonjelly
Guest
First signs of my alternator failing on the Sprint was this,check the charging as Matt says,mind you next sympton is a destroyed battery which decides it.
Shaun
Shaun
Misfire
- Thread starter Keith
- Start date
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
sfcpiet said:
I used the Redax/Sachse Hall effect pickup system with an Ignitech box making the sparks. I don't have a probelm with the Sachse ignition module. I just wanted the programmability and additional features of the Ignitech.
Cheers,
Cam
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
DMCII is relatively easy to install and operates faultlessly in most bikes for many, many years (DMCI in my 180? Jota is now 20 years old, the DMC II in my 1000 SFC is from 2000, so 12 years old, no issue at all).
The only 2 points to take care of are: make sure you mount the unit with the cables fixed so they don't shake to much (else the little connectors may break) but also make sure it does not sit to tight. Second point is to make sure your oil-seal in the primary cover is oil-tight, else the photo-cell might be blocked by oil and that could cause issues, too. Never had that personally, but heard some had issues with that.
Else it is really "install and forget". Installation and setup isn't to difficult and should work fine if you simply follow the instructions. Don't forget to remove the resistors in the original wiring harness, very often forgotten... But else it is so easy, that even a dump guy like me was able to install it, so - can't be THAT difficult then...
The only 2 points to take care of are: make sure you mount the unit with the cables fixed so they don't shake to much (else the little connectors may break) but also make sure it does not sit to tight. Second point is to make sure your oil-seal in the primary cover is oil-tight, else the photo-cell might be blocked by oil and that could cause issues, too. Never had that personally, but heard some had issues with that.
Else it is really "install and forget". Installation and setup isn't to difficult and should work fine if you simply follow the instructions. Don't forget to remove the resistors in the original wiring harness, very often forgotten... But else it is so easy, that even a dump guy like me was able to install it, so - can't be THAT difficult then...
sfcpiet said:
if you ask Ignitech for a box that will work with Hall Effect triggers they will supply one which is what Cam did and he bought an extra Ignitech box for us as well which I plan to install on the Dyno to start mapping advance curves, you don't need to retain the original 35 year old pick ups if you don't wish to.
Sachse will sell you the trigger board and rotor by themselves and then it connects straight up to the Ignitech Hall Effect box
once installed you just need to spend many hours designing advance curves, sounds like fun to me
redax5 said:
Well Red,
We were talking 120s here, SFC1000 to be specific...
The later Bosch MkII 180/120 pick-ups are a lot more prone to terminally breaking up than the early MkI version. Once the wiring insulation crumbles, the wires very often break off where they enter the pick-up body. Any repair in this area can only be a temporary one. The early pick-ups are actually exrtremely robust and can, and often do, take a tremendous amount of abuse before giving up. The cables rarely rot off at the pick-up entry, so new insulation here is usually all that is needed. Once the electrical connections are sorted, they're good to go at least another 20-odd years before the wiring needs re-doing, about the same lifespan of any other sort of wiring in the same application I'd assume. Only downside is the alternator itself, but you have an excellent alternative for that!
The pick-up plate in my 3C is one of the very few original parts in the bike and has not given me cause for concern. As far as I'm concerned, it's staying as it is, weak alternator and all as I no longer use the bike for any sort of long-distance touring through pitch-black nights.
For my next project I'm planning on using an Ignitech, just for the fun!
piet
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
sfcpiet said:For my next project I'm planning on using an Ignitech, just for the fun!
piet
me, too, for the same reason...
...back in the real world where ignition is more a necessity than funtime ...when the insulation on your pick-up (series 1 180 Jota)givies up resulting in short circuits and unknown chronic advance , leading to piston land break up, you'll be wishing you changed it (to a sachs bought from Red, installed by Keith))sooner...
Nick7
...when the insulation on your pick-up (series 1 180 Jota)givies up resulting in short circuits and unknown chronic advance , leading to piston land break up, you'll be wishing you changed it (to a sachs bought from Red, installed by Keith))sooner...Nick7
L
laverlesmains
Guest
Hey Keith - I'll be following your investigation closely as I have very similar symptoms on my 3C - except it happens between 5000-5500.. other than that range it runs very well.
Good Luck !
Tim
here's the thread I started awhile back
Good Luck !
Tim
here's the thread I started awhile back
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
now you say it, I remember that thread. What I do not remember is if you changed the battery?!? Friend of mine had the bike starting well but had cut-outs, too, in midrange. He found that due to vibrations in that range, the battery plates inside the battery had come off and produced a shorting, which caused a drop in voltage to a level where the DMC shut down (below 8Volt or so?!?). He only recognized it when the battery started to have that fault during the starting procedure, too. Bike rode like that for roughly half a year or so, if not more...
Check the voltage during riding if possible and see what it says when you get to that rev-range...
Check the voltage during riding if possible and see what it says when you get to that rev-range...
L
laverlesmains
Guest
Yes - I have a new Odyssey in it.
So I've finally got back to working on my bike - everyday chores somehow find a way of interrupting the important things in life!
Anyway, I've stripped and checked the carbies and all seems good there. I took the pickups out and proceeded to go through all the wiring back through to the plug, taking the outer sheath off and checking the wires individually - shit what a mess!! There's quite a few (alot) of small cracks in just about every lead, some exposed bits of wire here and there and some discolouring of the wires in those areas. Ugly.............
Tried to repair what I could with heatshrink and CRC soft seal - basically a wax in a can which was recommended by an Electrical Engineer. Put the pickups back in, checked the gaps again, fired the bike up and.............yep, same problem exactly, missing between 3200 & 3700revs with either side of those revs being good. Bugger!! :'(
Next week it's off to see the local Auto sparkie - who happens to own a Guzzi, to see if we can diagnose the fault properly. However, whatever the fault, I can see a new ignition on the horizon.
Keith.
Anyway, I've stripped and checked the carbies and all seems good there. I took the pickups out and proceeded to go through all the wiring back through to the plug, taking the outer sheath off and checking the wires individually - shit what a mess!! There's quite a few (alot) of small cracks in just about every lead, some exposed bits of wire here and there and some discolouring of the wires in those areas. Ugly.............
Tried to repair what I could with heatshrink and CRC soft seal - basically a wax in a can which was recommended by an Electrical Engineer. Put the pickups back in, checked the gaps again, fired the bike up and.............yep, same problem exactly, missing between 3200 & 3700revs with either side of those revs being good. Bugger!! :'(
Next week it's off to see the local Auto sparkie - who happens to own a Guzzi, to see if we can diagnose the fault properly. However, whatever the fault, I can see a new ignition on the horizon.
Keith.
Keith
You have a lot of info to digest here, !st things I always do i check the plug caps,with an AVO (Ohms tester) PLug caps do not last for ever, cause all kinds of misfiring problems and cost ?3 over here in the UK, mail order.
Often they will be 5K, 1k or 0K resistance and "may" have it cast or stamped on them. I've had the problem on a bike I aquired just recently, and it wasn't at high revs but at idle upwards, conversely my JOTA had a similar issue that prevented high revs..
Its a ten minute job to check them, doesn't involve any guess work and should be early in your list of logical diagnosis.
regards
Rob
You have a lot of info to digest here, !st things I always do i check the plug caps,with an AVO (Ohms tester) PLug caps do not last for ever, cause all kinds of misfiring problems and cost ?3 over here in the UK, mail order.
Often they will be 5K, 1k or 0K resistance and "may" have it cast or stamped on them. I've had the problem on a bike I aquired just recently, and it wasn't at high revs but at idle upwards, conversely my JOTA had a similar issue that prevented high revs..
Its a ten minute job to check them, doesn't involve any guess work and should be early in your list of logical diagnosis.
regards
Rob
DoC!
Hero member
Keith,
I had the virtually the same problem a couple of years ago on my Jota 120. Bad running, going on to one and two cylinders etc etc.
There is nothing wrong at all with the original Bosch ignition system until the outer sheathing on the 6 pickup wires starts to crumble, exposing/shorting the wires with vibration.
My cables were a mess around the pickups, but also on closer inspection, the sheathing had broken away just beneath the 6 pin plug where the tie-wrap holds the loom to the frame. When I took the wiring off the frame the outer sheathing fell off from the tie-wrap point right into the plug. Not good! The cabling was beyond repair so I replaced everything with the Sasche. End of problem and the bike has never run better, especially since Keith Nairn dialled in the valve timing correctly.
I think the Sasche system is brilliant for my purposes and I have one installed on both the Jota and the Corsa.
Having said that, the RGS is still running on the original system and runs like a dream too. On the first sign of trouble though, the first place I will look is the cabling from the pickups to the 6 pin plug.
Cheers
DoC!
I had the virtually the same problem a couple of years ago on my Jota 120. Bad running, going on to one and two cylinders etc etc.
There is nothing wrong at all with the original Bosch ignition system until the outer sheathing on the 6 pickup wires starts to crumble, exposing/shorting the wires with vibration.
My cables were a mess around the pickups, but also on closer inspection, the sheathing had broken away just beneath the 6 pin plug where the tie-wrap holds the loom to the frame. When I took the wiring off the frame the outer sheathing fell off from the tie-wrap point right into the plug. Not good! The cabling was beyond repair so I replaced everything with the Sasche. End of problem and the bike has never run better, especially since Keith Nairn dialled in the valve timing correctly.
I think the Sasche system is brilliant for my purposes and I have one installed on both the Jota and the Corsa.
Having said that, the RGS is still running on the original system and runs like a dream too. On the first sign of trouble though, the first place I will look is the cabling from the pickups to the 6 pin plug.
Cheers
DoC!
Thanks for the reminder Rob. I don't know why, but the plug caps have been mentioned before, and for whatever reason I've never checked them. Sometimes it can be the simple things!! (mine are 5K)
DoC, you've pretty much described - alot better than me - the state of my cabling/wires from the pickups to the plug, sounds exactly like your one was - probably beyond repair!
I'll keep fiddling with a few things (plug caps) and then see the Auto Sparkie next week anyway.
Cheers,
Keith.
DoC, you've pretty much described - alot better than me - the state of my cabling/wires from the pickups to the plug, sounds exactly like your one was - probably beyond repair!
I'll keep fiddling with a few things (plug caps) and then see the Auto Sparkie next week anyway.
Cheers,
Keith.
Spub
Hero member
This is what makes this site such a great resource, all of the great suggestions and diagnosic advice.....It would be hard to imagine a Laverda related problem that someone here has not seen previously...
I've now had a Jota 120, a Jota 180, an SFC and an SF2. All came with standard ignition. Only the 120 left my ownership with the standard ignition, the others either getting DMC or Sachse ignitions.
I had a Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport that had the stock Ducati Electronica ignition. The curve spooled in full advance before you cleared the intersection from a stop. Replace this with a Sachse ignition and it idled and ran beautifully. It was also the simplest new ignition I have ever installed.
That experience was so good when I had trouble dialing in the stock points SFC ignition, I decided to install a Sachse ignition. Again, very simple install and set up, and the box makes changeing curves very simple. Bike runs perfectly (as perfect as one of these can run on the road).
I would agree with the consensus here that any new electronic ignition will likely give much better performance that the 30 year old stock ignitions.
I've now had a Jota 120, a Jota 180, an SFC and an SF2. All came with standard ignition. Only the 120 left my ownership with the standard ignition, the others either getting DMC or Sachse ignitions.
I had a Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport that had the stock Ducati Electronica ignition. The curve spooled in full advance before you cleared the intersection from a stop. Replace this with a Sachse ignition and it idled and ran beautifully. It was also the simplest new ignition I have ever installed.
That experience was so good when I had trouble dialing in the stock points SFC ignition, I decided to install a Sachse ignition. Again, very simple install and set up, and the box makes changeing curves very simple. Bike runs perfectly (as perfect as one of these can run on the road).
I would agree with the consensus here that any new electronic ignition will likely give much better performance that the 30 year old stock ignitions.
Marmite
Hero member
Keith,
Not sure where in the world you are, but I have a complete RGS ignition system that was taken off ages ago (1990's I think), the wiring is pretty much unmolested. It has pickups, both looms, backplate, all the plugs etc. etc. and three boxes.
I was just about to stick it on ebay, but will hold of for a couple of days.
I am in the south of England.
Drop me a pm if you are interested and I will send some pics.
Pete
Not sure where in the world you are, but I have a complete RGS ignition system that was taken off ages ago (1990's I think), the wiring is pretty much unmolested. It has pickups, both looms, backplate, all the plugs etc. etc. and three boxes.
I was just about to stick it on ebay, but will hold of for a couple of days.
I am in the south of England.
Drop me a pm if you are interested and I will send some pics.
Pete
Damn plug caps!! Finally got around to checking mine and yes one was a dud, so I thought I'd change the lot of them with others that I'd had lying around. Didn't check them though and yes one of them was a dud!! 
It was only after my visit to the Auto Sparkie today that, that was discovered, along with loose connections to the ignition boxes/modules. We changed the cap, tightened one of the connectors (squashing the lug a bit) and now the bike runs a bit better, but still not completely right though. The misfire now seems lower down in the rev range judging from my ride home. So next thing is to tighten all connections to the boxes/modules, change all plug caps and leads, go for a blast and see how we go from there. It seems to be a few small problems rather than a complete component failure - at this stage.
Will keep picking away at it and hopefully nail it soon.
Cheers,
Keith.
It was only after my visit to the Auto Sparkie today that, that was discovered, along with loose connections to the ignition boxes/modules. We changed the cap, tightened one of the connectors (squashing the lug a bit) and now the bike runs a bit better, but still not completely right though. The misfire now seems lower down in the rev range judging from my ride home. So next thing is to tighten all connections to the boxes/modules, change all plug caps and leads, go for a blast and see how we go from there. It seems to be a few small problems rather than a complete component failure - at this stage.
Will keep picking away at it and hopefully nail it soon.
Cheers,
Keith.
Go a little further back in the basics and check your valve clearances. One or more on the borderline of too tight could be the culprit. Chased a car at work through similar symptoms and forgot to consider the very basics.
Also is your bike in the range of the weak,cracking manifold stubs? Might be worth a look.
Also is your bike in the range of the weak,cracking manifold stubs? Might be worth a look.
It's fixed!!!!!!!!!!!
So this morning I decided to carry on what the Sparkie had started and that was to pull the other 2 ignition box connectors off and squash the lugs a bit for a better connection. While I was doing that I noticed too that the plate holding the ignition boxes was very slightly loose. Tightened that up, put the bike back together and went for a 25km blast and........... no misfire! - couldn't believe it - something so simple. Maybe with the plate slightly loose and the connections slightly loose there was enough vibrations at a certain revs to upset things. I will change all my plug caps now as I've got 2 x 5k & 1 x 1k on the bike and they've all seen a few miles. The Sparkie also reckons I should ditch my silicon suppression leads, go straight to copper ones and the 5k caps as these are more than adequate for suppression?
Thanks heaps all for the advice and info for trying to track down the problem - lots more stuff on the bike to look out for in similar circumstances.
It's off to the Classic bike racing this weekend here in NZ - on my bike now.
Cheers,
Keith.
So this morning I decided to carry on what the Sparkie had started and that was to pull the other 2 ignition box connectors off and squash the lugs a bit for a better connection. While I was doing that I noticed too that the plate holding the ignition boxes was very slightly loose. Tightened that up, put the bike back together and went for a 25km blast and........... no misfire! - couldn't believe it - something so simple. Maybe with the plate slightly loose and the connections slightly loose there was enough vibrations at a certain revs to upset things. I will change all my plug caps now as I've got 2 x 5k & 1 x 1k on the bike and they've all seen a few miles. The Sparkie also reckons I should ditch my silicon suppression leads, go straight to copper ones and the 5k caps as these are more than adequate for suppression?
Thanks heaps all for the advice and info for trying to track down the problem - lots more stuff on the bike to look out for in similar circumstances.
It's off to the Classic bike racing this weekend here in NZ - on my bike now.
Cheers,
Keith.