G
Grant
Guest
I only use the rear brake when I REALLY need max retardation, just before throwing the boat anchor off the back and digging my heels into the tarmac.
rear sets 79 Jota
- Thread starter rob reznik
- Start date
Cosi
Hero member
- Location
- Kingscliff
Grant said:
:-X :-X :-X
chrisk
Hero member
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
Rear brake users are for wooses, ask Cosi. Apart from Gov regs, most good riders don't use em much. Red wine rules BTW.
markQLD
Hero member
- Location
- QLD Australia
well blokes, i reckon they're not going fast enough !!Cosi said:
Doohan went to a lot of trouble to set-up a left thumb operated rear brake?
oh, i guess Mick was not one of your 'fast guys' eh? :-*
Cosi
Hero member
- Location
- Kingscliff
AY AY Im on your side brother, let the fools believe they dont need em
I was gonna raise that myself that i bet Casey, Lorenzo Blah Blah dont use em
Well maybe Dani doesnt
I was gonna raise that myself that i bet Casey, Lorenzo Blah Blah dont use em
Well maybe Dani doesnt
markQLD
Hero member
- Location
- QLD Australia
:-X :-X :-X
S
silvo
Guest
Here's a question for you.
Sit on a bicycle and lift the front wheel without putting on any rear brake. Then do it with the rear brake on and tell me what happens.
Sit on a bicycle and lift the front wheel without putting on any rear brake. Then do it with the rear brake on and tell me what happens.
chrisk
Hero member
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
markQLD said:
Oh my balls ...................... OK, you can let me go now! Although I did say ..... much.
This might turn into "A Matter for Debate"
Silvo, No back brake: the front wheel raises, the back wheel remains stationary and the axle moves clockwise because it follows the plane of the bike.
With brake on: the front wheel raises, whilst the back wheel goes slightly backwards and clockwise, following the plane of the bike.
Your point is???
S
silvo
Guest
When you try to lift the front wheel of a bicycle with no rear brake on it's harder because you don't have a pivot point. Put on the rear brake and it's much easier.
Extrapolate the same to a moving bike. No back brake 'on' means the momentum or gyroscopic effect of the wheels is much the same. Rear brake on pulls the centre of gravity towards the rear wheel. Which means that the bike can pivot off the rear wheel when turning. Which is why Doohan and co. went to such great lengths to have a rear brake. Judicious use helps pull the bike tighter into a corner.
I'm not an engineer but I instinctively know how this works. I just don't know the proper nomenclature to describe it.
Extrapolate the same to a moving bike. No back brake 'on' means the momentum or gyroscopic effect of the wheels is much the same. Rear brake on pulls the centre of gravity towards the rear wheel. Which means that the bike can pivot off the rear wheel when turning. Which is why Doohan and co. went to such great lengths to have a rear brake. Judicious use helps pull the bike tighter into a corner.
I'm not an engineer but I instinctively know how this works. I just don't know the proper nomenclature to describe it.
chrisk
Hero member
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
Silvo, I'm not debating your theory.
But really, if you're on the fronts hard, the back wheel isn't, or is only just, in contact with the tarmac, a reasonable jab on the back, as you've got it cranked over under heavy fronts, is not going to be a pretty look.
In modern day racing, with sensitive throttle control, while lining up for the corner and on the fronts hard, you can 'back it into' the corner under gas (although it looks like a braked broadslide it's not, it's a powerslide), requiring you to counter steer into the corner.
In some cases 'backing in' will get you through a corner quicker, because you are not upsetting the bike part way through the corner due to the transitional throttle/braking and back on again part way though the corner. Keeping it smooth is the key.
The skill with 'backing in' is knowing when, and how much, to roll off the throttle (a sudden back off will highside you) and releasing the front brakes, so you are not 'rear drifting' all the way through the corner, and while this is fun, it's not going to get you though the corner as fast and when you have good drive.
This method now used in road racing was adopted from speedway racing.
When I raced speedway (sliders), it was natural, when a novice, to back off near the end of the straight and then gas it going into the corner, with practice I was (sometimes) able to do a complete race without backing off suddenly, countersteering all the way around the track, until someone held you up, or the chequered flag was out, obviously. Throttle control is critical in both forms of the sport.
Back to tarmac: Not every corner on a track requires, or allows you to 'back in' and in those circumstances rear braking is used to get you into or tip it in further, the traditional way!
However. there are however circumstances where back brake use is critical. Road riding doesn't really lend itself to 'backing' it into corners, and using the rear in conjunction with the fronts in tighter circumstances, such as around town, emergency braking, and heavily trafficed twistes is mandatory.
I can't go into the physics of the whole thing, cause I know jack shit about it, but do know what works for me.
Marty Moose made a really good comment here some months ago about back braking to help you tip it in further while going through a corner. At first I though he was full of shit, and I really had to think hard about what he was pointing out, but it occurs naturally without a lot of riders having to think about it and it wasn't until he pointed it out, that I went,
"oh yeah, I do do that too".
I retract my statement that "all the fast guys "only" use there front brakes" I should have said "mostly".
I reckon that's why there are those two round bits on the front wheel, and only one (rusty) one on the back?? I stand corrected, as always.
Chris
But really, if you're on the fronts hard, the back wheel isn't, or is only just, in contact with the tarmac, a reasonable jab on the back, as you've got it cranked over under heavy fronts, is not going to be a pretty look.
In modern day racing, with sensitive throttle control, while lining up for the corner and on the fronts hard, you can 'back it into' the corner under gas (although it looks like a braked broadslide it's not, it's a powerslide), requiring you to counter steer into the corner.
In some cases 'backing in' will get you through a corner quicker, because you are not upsetting the bike part way through the corner due to the transitional throttle/braking and back on again part way though the corner. Keeping it smooth is the key.
The skill with 'backing in' is knowing when, and how much, to roll off the throttle (a sudden back off will highside you) and releasing the front brakes, so you are not 'rear drifting' all the way through the corner, and while this is fun, it's not going to get you though the corner as fast and when you have good drive.
This method now used in road racing was adopted from speedway racing.
When I raced speedway (sliders), it was natural, when a novice, to back off near the end of the straight and then gas it going into the corner, with practice I was (sometimes) able to do a complete race without backing off suddenly, countersteering all the way around the track, until someone held you up, or the chequered flag was out, obviously. Throttle control is critical in both forms of the sport.
Back to tarmac: Not every corner on a track requires, or allows you to 'back in' and in those circumstances rear braking is used to get you into or tip it in further, the traditional way!
However. there are however circumstances where back brake use is critical. Road riding doesn't really lend itself to 'backing' it into corners, and using the rear in conjunction with the fronts in tighter circumstances, such as around town, emergency braking, and heavily trafficed twistes is mandatory.
I can't go into the physics of the whole thing, cause I know jack shit about it, but do know what works for me.
Marty Moose made a really good comment here some months ago about back braking to help you tip it in further while going through a corner. At first I though he was full of shit, and I really had to think hard about what he was pointing out, but it occurs naturally without a lot of riders having to think about it and it wasn't until he pointed it out, that I went,
"oh yeah, I do do that too".I retract my statement that "all the fast guys "only" use there front brakes" I should have said "mostly".
I reckon that's why there are those two round bits on the front wheel, and only one (rusty) one on the back?? I stand corrected, as always.
Chris
S
silvo
Guest
Chris,
I almost started to explain 'backing it in' and 'rear wheel steering' as well. It's heading in that direction. Kenny Roberts is credited with perfecting this in the late 70's and look where he came from, dirt track. Same as you're saying - speedway. Trailing the back brake works but it's not for every type of corner. Most modern racers would use it to just stabilise the rear end before they let it re shape the trajectory i.e straighten the corner. Why take a traditional line when the fastest way for modern bikes around a race track is in a straight line.
Homos like me, who ride at a tenth of their speed with a third of their power and brakes use it to do U turns and control the bike through decreasing radius corners on mountain roads. You're right about doing things naturally because most of us who have survived riding this long do a lot of things instinctively but we're unaware of what we do. It was only when I did an instructors course that I realised this (I was a Q-Ride instructor years ago) I thought half of what I was taught was pissing in my ear until I tried it and when I started thinking about it, it made sense. It also made sense to slow down so I did.
I wished I'd done speedway. I've only ever had one crack at it but sliding a bike is fucking fantastic fun. I was taught how to do it in the 70's by my sisters off road racing boyfriend on a huge sand flat at low tide over on Stradbroke Island. Flat chat sideways, feathering the throttle, doing huge figure of 8's. Bloody hell it was fun. You'd get locked up doing it these days over there.
Chris
I almost started to explain 'backing it in' and 'rear wheel steering' as well. It's heading in that direction. Kenny Roberts is credited with perfecting this in the late 70's and look where he came from, dirt track. Same as you're saying - speedway. Trailing the back brake works but it's not for every type of corner. Most modern racers would use it to just stabilise the rear end before they let it re shape the trajectory i.e straighten the corner. Why take a traditional line when the fastest way for modern bikes around a race track is in a straight line.
Homos like me, who ride at a tenth of their speed with a third of their power and brakes use it to do U turns and control the bike through decreasing radius corners on mountain roads. You're right about doing things naturally because most of us who have survived riding this long do a lot of things instinctively but we're unaware of what we do. It was only when I did an instructors course that I realised this (I was a Q-Ride instructor years ago) I thought half of what I was taught was pissing in my ear until I tried it and when I started thinking about it, it made sense. It also made sense to slow down so I did.
I wished I'd done speedway. I've only ever had one crack at it but sliding a bike is fucking fantastic fun. I was taught how to do it in the 70's by my sisters off road racing boyfriend on a huge sand flat at low tide over on Stradbroke Island. Flat chat sideways, feathering the throttle, doing huge figure of 8's. Bloody hell it was fun. You'd get locked up doing it these days over there.
Chris
Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
Ha! Me too - learned to slide a bike on tidal flats (when the tide was out of course). The bike was a candy blue 1971 SL350 Honda. That's why I recently sought out and restored a similar bike that now lives in my collection - so many good memories.
The spot where we used to poke sticks into the sand to mark out our race tracks is now a marine sanctuary. You're not even allowed to walk on it!!
You can only view it from afar with binocculars. Whoop de doo! What a fun way to spend your day. Well, maybe if you like to watch seagulls and terns strutting around half a mile away.
It's nice to see that the Poms haven't gone too over-the-top with the bloody low-tide periwinkle police. They still run beach races at Mablethorpe http://www.xtreme-action-images.com/sandrace/index.html
Cheers,
Cam
The spot where we used to poke sticks into the sand to mark out our race tracks is now a marine sanctuary. You're not even allowed to walk on it!!
You can only view it from afar with binocculars. Whoop de doo! What a fun way to spend your day. Well, maybe if you like to watch seagulls and terns strutting around half a mile away.
It's nice to see that the Poms haven't gone too over-the-top with the bloody low-tide periwinkle police. They still run beach races at Mablethorpe http://www.xtreme-action-images.com/sandrace/index.html
Cheers,
Cam
Years ago I had an XT500 Yamaha,it was horrible offroad.It would wheelstand and spin up sideways at the same time.I added some later model longer travel suspendion both ends and cranked in the steering head to a more suitable rack and trail on a Motolinner frame jig.Man could it hold a slide after that.I spent a fantastic day at Jillaby MX track cranking it nearly horizontal,on occasion completely laying it down laughing my arse off.It was still the best bike day I have ever had.Nothing like a low revving single made these days,my modern 4 stroke off roader revs like a 2 stroke and doesn't slide much with it.
This may sound mundane after all of the sliding/racing comments, but some of us have to ride in traffic.
I use the back brake a lot.
-It is great at stop lights. You can slip into neutral, let go of the bars, and sit up to stretch without the bike rolling away.
-I also hit it often when on the move because it makes the tail light come on without slowing the bike. A useful warning to tail-gaters or to telegraph your intention to slow down on the throttle.
I use the back brake a lot.
-It is great at stop lights. You can slip into neutral, let go of the bars, and sit up to stretch without the bike rolling away.
-I also hit it often when on the move because it makes the tail light come on without slowing the bike. A useful warning to tail-gaters or to telegraph your intention to slow down on the throttle.
S
silvo
Guest
Dellortoman said:
Me too, a Honda that is. A blue Yoshi big bore kitted XL 175 with trick looking Mullholland shockies. I tried to buy it afterwards but no go. A mate of mine collects these early Honda trail bikes and he reckons these little 175s are hard to find these days.
Always wanted a 500TT Vince, but I think they're better looking than they run.
Cosi
Hero member
- Location
- Kingscliff
silvo said:
Well you just never know do you, I figured that for someone to create all that trickery on the jota that you must like to punt a bit, the boys bike, it all makes sense, hows about, seens as your a "true blue" instructor, not taking the piss, id like to get around to it myself oneday, that we organise through the "other" Morrison for a trackday at Morgan and you can enlighten us on our aligning our instinct with our conscious mind to make us all that little bit sharper, club will stump, i dont reckon we'll gett
any no's for a track day
So Kay, i think weve established that now we will not only be inspecting the tyres on peoples bikes but also the rear brake disc
My right knee is still rooted.Riding hard single track,I would get halfway up a hill and stall it,spend 20 minutes kicking to start it,yep I know the big single drill.By then my heart rate would be around 192,it would finally start and I would be to stuffed to continue.My last ride ended with me arriving at the camp spot and launching it into the bush in discussed.I hated it by then.Next came a Husky Automatic that was fantastical reliable for a couple of years and then became even worse.Long long story that one.Nothing better than modern eclectic starts,great gadgets.BYW I always use both brakes on the 3C,being a long wheelbase bike they sink level and brake better using both.Short wheelbase modern sports bikes are completely differant animal,with them there is a good chance the rear wheel is in the air while braking hard,make a rear lockup a certainty.
S
silvo
Guest
Cosi
Your flatering my abilities a bit much suggesting I help some of you fall off around Morgan Park. My main trade was teaching people how to not die on the road not on a race track. Similar stuff but not the same. I used to hang around the race scene a lot in the seventies and eighties until a mate of mine died in front of me (I was watching, not racing) up at Lakeside. I learnt a lot back then and did enough laps of Lakeside to know the difference between going fast and going home. Back on the road I've slammed into a few cars, fences and flower beds to know what my abilities are as well. Mind you I suffer brain in bucket syndrome just like any Italian bike rider only knows. As for aligning your instinct with your conscious mind I can only suggest three things: smoke more fox tails, read more Keith Code (I think he's done plenty of the first one) or we can slap you around 'Rocky' style before you hit the track.
Seriously though, if you want to go fast the keys are preparation and practice. Learn how to set a bike up properly - go and watch Stev B for that. It doesn't get any better in my opinion. Then practice riding something you can totally dominate then you start to learn the true meaning of going fast Grasshopper.............. (notworthy)
Your flatering my abilities a bit much suggesting I help some of you fall off around Morgan Park. My main trade was teaching people how to not die on the road not on a race track. Similar stuff but not the same. I used to hang around the race scene a lot in the seventies and eighties until a mate of mine died in front of me (I was watching, not racing) up at Lakeside. I learnt a lot back then and did enough laps of Lakeside to know the difference between going fast and going home. Back on the road I've slammed into a few cars, fences and flower beds to know what my abilities are as well. Mind you I suffer brain in bucket syndrome just like any Italian bike rider only knows. As for aligning your instinct with your conscious mind I can only suggest three things: smoke more fox tails, read more Keith Code (I think he's done plenty of the first one) or we can slap you around 'Rocky' style before you hit the track.
Seriously though, if you want to go fast the keys are preparation and practice. Learn how to set a bike up properly - go and watch Stev B for that. It doesn't get any better in my opinion. Then practice riding something you can totally dominate then you start to learn the true meaning of going fast Grasshopper.............. (notworthy)
markQLD
Hero member
- Location
- QLD Australia
+10,silvo said:
and reckon a bit of 'concentration' should be thrown into the mix ?
something us CLQ blokes throw out the window, immediately elPrez advises us all "it's not a race" !!
chrisk
Hero member
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
Silvo, I didn't know you were an instuctor. :-* :-* :-* You blokes are too clever for me.
I failed my defensive riding coarse because we were told to jump a pine log without the front wheel coming into contact with it. I jumped the log with both wheels, then he goes, ride at 40Klms max and then brake hard in the gravel covered tarmac without skidding the front. I endoed it with a 180 to complete it, and the instuctor failed me because "the strap on my helmet wasn't tight enough". He said I was a smart arse and didn't deserve to ride motorbikes, and would be dead by 45. I've got 7 years on him so far, he can get fucked. If all you blokes are the same, I'm not sure we'd get along (do you wear a BMW split helmet? Now that's a teller.).
That said, I'd like to learn a bit more about gyroscopic phisics stuff, so you might be handy to have around. I can't listen to it over beers, so don't start on me at the pub!
I failed my defensive riding coarse because we were told to jump a pine log without the front wheel coming into contact with it. I jumped the log with both wheels, then he goes, ride at 40Klms max and then brake hard in the gravel covered tarmac without skidding the front. I endoed it with a 180 to complete it, and the instuctor failed me because "the strap on my helmet wasn't tight enough". He said I was a smart arse and didn't deserve to ride motorbikes, and would be dead by 45. I've got 7 years on him so far, he can get fucked. If all you blokes are the same, I'm not sure we'd get along (do you wear a BMW split helmet? Now that's a teller.).
That said, I'd like to learn a bit more about gyroscopic phisics stuff, so you might be handy to have around. I can't listen to it over beers, so don't start on me at the pub!