S2 Starter sprag repair

laverda180

Junior member
Hi All, any developments on attempts to repair the freewheel surface for the starter spray clutch rollers? I have a series 2 starter clutch with, you guessed it just about all components shot; back plate loose, springs broken, housing cracked with multiple chips, housing (bolts to generator) worn by rollers, chipped rollers, etc.. So all new parts required, would be nice to find a way to save the freewheel if at all possible. The roller surface is 49,65mm diameter and mostly looks good, but on the leading edge it is showing some signs of flaking as if it is hard coated, hence why I am thinking to have it repaired. I believe it is original and it seems logical to have hardened this surface somehow. So cutting out and replacing with a modern hard coat or fitting the inner race from a needle bearing and grinding back were first thoughts before reading this discussion. So any recent developments?

So the starter torque is transmitted to the crank through the clutch bolts attaching clutch to back of ND rotor (someone in the past has removed the three pins as generally recommended but did not punch or otherwise secure the screws) and in turn to crank through taper fit of ND rotor! So really three loose screws can handle more torque than a well applied suitable hard coat or bearing inner race properly shrink fitted and ground to size? It would seem so and that it is the pure violence of the rollers engaging on the freewheel that breaks inner rings and coatings.

Second topic re the freewheel. It?s very sloppy on the crank, needle bearing is in good order (FAG DHK3016) as is crank at 30,00mm so I assume that yes by design this needle bearing is oversized for the crank and usually has little or no function as the freewheel sort of floats between needle bearings and clutch rollers when engine is running.

Finally what?s happened re Steve Winterton and Calere? Steve did all the work on my Jota before it was laid up for 20 years and I became pre-occupied with kids and then desert biking. Jota was straight back out on the road last year with little more attention than test, register and fresh fuel. First ride 1000km return across the Alps to Italy which was great, but clearly it was in need of its current teardown. Would be great to touch base with Steve again.
 
Oops, sounds like I am blaming Steve for the state of the starter clutch, etc.. Not at all, my fault entirely for not giving enough freedom to him to fully fettle the bike at any time. Money was tight and in those days we had enough issues with a poor build by a dealer who wont be named and design issues with original head that refused to work so resulted in Steve fitting an SFC head since when the bike was reliable. Have actually been lucky as this tear down is purely because I have an enforced layoff from riding and the bike was due a refresh after 20 years storage. Starter was as far as I was concerned working just fine!
 
You'll have read from the very old thread you originally posted to that repairs to the gearwheel have not been successful due to the enormous stress that the rollers impose on its surface as they transmit drive from the starter motor.

I'm not sure from your description that you fully understand the sprag clutch operation - there is no way that the three cover retaining screws are transmitting any torque. It is possible to obtain replacement parts for the sprag - OCT in Germany usually have everything in stock.

I understand Steve Winterton can be found on Facebook. His Calere business ceased to exist many years ago.
 
Hi Rob, you are Right, I know a sprang clutch engages in one direction only, but I am confused regarding how the starter transmits torque through to the crank as I find no positive torque transmission between the crank and freewheel other than freewheel to rollers to inner ring through two pins to housing to three screws to generator rotor to shaft taper. Anyway no recent news re ways to save the freewheel which on closer inspection is breaking up over the full circumference for roller Engagement in the form of thin slivers of metal tearing off as if it were a spray metal hard coat! So off to OCT it is. Can only say I have been lucky to catch it now.

Tips to keep a replacement healthy are I suppose good relays, ensure battery is healthy and ignition timing good with periodic inspections to ensure nothing is coming loose. How often would you recommend to avoid such damage occurring.

I have never had a backfire, original relay is still healthy and battery brand new. Can?t recall ever having a starting problem of any kind or engaging starter when riding so it seems waiting for telltale symptoms is no way to go.
 
Are you still running the original BTZ ignition?  It's susceptible to throwing ignition timing way out when cranking due to  collapsing battery volts.  An Ignitech allows you to delay firing the plugs for 1 or more revolutions to give the sprag an easier time.
As well as a healthy battery, think about maintaining your starter motor to maintain its efficient operation.
Replace rollers and plunger springs once in a blue moon and don't ignore any unusual noises when operating the starter.
I managed around 70,000km on an original BTZ machine before the gearwheel needed replacement.
 
Thanks again Rob, I have run a DMC1 since about 1990 and as far as I know it works well still, at least other than carbs giving mid range problems at steady throttle; one emulsion tube was bigger than others and all needed new gaskets and seals, it pulled easily to 7500 in top on the local autobahn. Not a thorough test of the unit, but bike accelerates well so long as not steady at mid range so no suspicions. The starter motor has never been worked on in my ownership so shall give that a once over. All starter gears, pinion, idler and freewheel teeth look great, but total mileage so far is 48000! Whilst in storage for 20 years it was relocated at least twice by third parties, at least once under own steam and possibility is that they may have used a slave battery in attempts to start with perhaps poor fuel due to standing. They were not Laverda people, just had a task to do. Ignition pick ups are originals, but again seem to function well and no wiring issue found when I rewired this spring. New wiring passed static tests, but have yet to run. Old wiring worked well re engine performance but was itself not original missing wiring for indicators and not helped by handlebar switches struggling re horn and bringing in 3rd phase when lights switched on. So new loom has relays for horn, lights and third phase though the latter I may choose to remove, instead wiring third phase direct to regulator. So action plan is a total renewal of spray clutch and freewheel, overhaul starter motor and replace relay because it is simply old and cheap to do. Rebuild motor etc and then good habits with occasional inspection of sprag. Perhaps pick ups should be replaced, any tips on what to use?
 
DMC shouldn't give problem with starting. Pickup replacement - I wouldn't bother if you're absolutely sure their external wiring is OK - tends to get brittle with age and cracks away from conductors leading to shorts and no spark / misfiring. Ain't much wrong if it'll pull 7500 in top!
 
The Breganzie Starter Clutch Sprag Gear: In my opinion is to firmly mount the Back Plate to the the Flywheel so it does not rattle - Either by Tig welding the plate to the flywheel or Drill & Tap for bolts thus eliminating the rivets.

Just hope you catch the problem before the dogs damage the channels in the flywheel and the back plate warps to hell.

I'm just reminding you of the Basic after that; it's your problem ;o)
 
Rob said:
DMC shouldn't give problem with starting. Pickup replacement - I wouldn't bother if you're absolutely sure their external wiring is OK - tends to get brittle with age and cracks away from conductors leading to shorts and no spark / misfiring. Ain't much wrong if it'll pull 7500 in top!

It can, with a deteriorating battery!  Same goes for bad ground connections or wonky wiring.  Lots of Bosch pick-ups still working fine on their original wires, mostly depends on how they were treated in the past.

piet
 
Rob said:
I understand Steve Winterton can be found on Facebook. His Calere business ceased to exist many years ago.

Why on earth would you want to contact Steve Winterton unless it's to chase your missing parts etc. Steer clear - seriously!!
 
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