Side stand sweet spot

[paulincayman]

Hi all,
  While I have the  3CL stripped to a bare frame and tinkering with the  top shock mounts I am also considering welding a side stand direct to the bottom rail . I have Joe's mounting kit which is beautifully engineered  and a  Kawasaki side stand which all go together nicely apart from clashing slightly with the center stand , the side stand also needs a bit of tuning lengthwise.. And I find it just a bit clunky. So I was wondering if anyone else had gone through the process and maybe save me a bit of grief  finding the correct location of it . The  mounting bracket for the stand has a bend which to my mind indicates the angle that it should  sit  at more or less.
  Alternatively I will have to do a dry build and start experimenting..
  Any help greatly appreciated.
Paul

 

[Vince]

Mine is too short after jacking up the shock length. What you need is just enough tilt to be secure and not over so far it takes a big heave to get it upright. Plus a foot big enough not to sink into any soft ground. Easy to say, The position of the kit stand is very good balance-wise. Don't know what else to say.

 

[Tippie]

"I am also considering welding a side stand direct to the bottom rail"
Plenty of bikes with this system have had the stand lug deform the bottom rail, not sure with Laverda frame rails. There is massive leverage around the mount for side stand mounts, hence that they are usually pretty hefty dimension. I think there are a few posts here regards solving the stand conflict issue on triples.

 

[Paul Marx]

An excelent way of twisting the bottom frame rail.
A modification of Joe's kit is in the making.

Paul

 

[CLEMTOG]

I have been using what is now being called the Jota Joe kit for many years, but give credit where due,there were two people involved before Joe, who did all the leg work, they were Rob Lawton and Bushman, (sorry forgot the first name) Joe is also to be praised because he is a bloody nice bloke (even if he has got an MV) and he sells them for a charitable gain, the bracketry is excellent, but I have found that the steel tubular Kawasaki stand is not really up to the job, Mine does get bent a little, in use, and not helped by ferry stevedores, who are not allowed to strap your bike down, for liability reasons, and come around after you have gone and ratchet in a few more clicks to an already heavily laden bike, ( I have left tell tales to prove this theory) mine has had to be heated and straightened a couple of times, and will need it again soon, so I am looking at a way of reinforcing it, a lot of this though is my own fault, as there are multiple cuts and shuts in order to get the length that I desire and have it tucked away neatly when riding the bike, all of those welds soften and to an extent crystallise the metal, which would not be the case if it was just a formed tube with one weld at the pivot end. I have two stands and one of them has had to have the pivot bushed with bronze to remove slop.

My advice to you is don't go for the welded on the lower frame rail option, it becomes very permanent and you will never get it right unless you tack it to a completely assembled  machine, The Jota Joe kit paces the weight superbly, and leaves you room for adjustment, you have only to cut the side stand tang a little shorter and all will be god, my current set up has no tang whatsoever and is still usable

CLEM

 

[andre g]

How I made it on an old 3 C Frame.
I made a bush same as at the RGS frame and welded it in the right position on the frame using a RGS side stand.
It works.

 

[andre g]

here are the other photos

 

[Paul Marx]

Is your bike on it's side stand all year round Andr??

Paul

 

[andre g]

Hi Paul,
the answer is yes and no.
I finished the work at this bike about 4 weeks ago after my first test rounds it is standing on the side stand.
It does not have a center stand.
It is still on the bench because I have to do some modifications.

When I store it I also can put it on a bock wheel race stand- should I?

Andre

 

[1200 JOTA]

That's one nice looking bike. As to side-stands ... mine I think was 'stock' but needed to be lengthened ~ 35mm to prevent excessive lean but I've retained the original (forward) mount point. I say this because I'd say that that position has little chance of twisting the frame as the forces are directed in a straighter line (in). In the end though is it not ideal, and just a few mm. makes a decent diference to it's stability and torque .... I suggest a mock-up. At least there are no conflicts with the centre-stand / exhaust (standard pedal positions .. not rear-set).

 

[Paul Marx]

Hi Paul,
the answer is yes and no.
I finished the work at this bike about 4 weeks ago after my first test rounds it is standing on the side stand.
It does not have a center stand.
It is still on the bench because I have to do some modifications.

When I store it I also can put it on a bock wheel race stand- should I?

Andre

I seem to remember something, somewhere, a long time ago about a twisted lower frame tube due to a side stand.
Which is why I asked if your bike spent 12 months a year on it's side stand.

Paul

 

[andre g]

I see Paul.
I do not think it will be a problem on my bike. Lean angle is not very much and so the forces are not high. On the other side are the lower tubes really necessary for the stiffnes of the frame?
My bike has a longer steeering had and two pipes additionally from the head to the main frame, under the tank the triangle tubes are longer and I made a box around the swinging arm pivot.

But I would not recommend two people siting on the bike and perform a dry lean in for a left curve when it is parked on the side stand.
Andre

 

[Dellortoman]

I have found that the steel tubular Kawasaki stand is not really up to the job

I used a Kawasaki ZZR1200 stand. It's solid steel rather than tubular and is heaps strong enough for any bike. On several occasions, when manoeuvring room was tight, I've pulled the bike up onto the stand so both wheels are off the ground and the full weight of the bike is balanced only on the side stand, then spun it around on its one foot like a ballet dancer (a handy trick to learn, but takes a little practice). The stand wasn't bothered by that kind of abuse.

all of those welds soften and to an extent crystallise the metal, which would not be the case if it was just a formed tube with one weld at the pivot end.

Your metallurgy theory isn't up to scratch old mate. It's a fallacy that crystallisation of steel is some kind of failure. All metals are crystalline, all the time. The only time they aren't is when they're molten. The crystal size and type can be altered by various methods such as doping with alloying materials, heat treatment, etc., but not by stresses imposed on the metal. I dunno where the false 'crystallisation failure' theory of steel came from, but it seems to be a widely held belief.

Actually, there are very few amorphous (non-crystalline) solids. Glass is one that comes to mind, also rubber and some plastics. You may be surprised to learn that most vegetable fibres are crystalline - wood, paper, carrots, potatoes, cotton (yes, your cotton underpants are made of crystals!) 

 

[paulincayman]

Very interesting to hear the varied opinions, lots of good real life info.  The modified Jota Joe bracket would certainly be the easiest solution to the center stand clash ..but still intriuged by the direct to the frame mount . Lots of other brands out there have done it over the years.maybebe with a little reinforcement. Seems lots to play with while the tools are out.

 

[breganzane]

How I made it on an old 3 C Frame.
I made a bush same as at the RGS frame and welded it in the right position on the frame using a RGS side stand.
It works.

That is a very nice solution, basically what the factory did on the 120 Jota which uses a very similar stand and pivot etc as the RGS.

The Kawa stand on the adapter bracket does not play well with left foot change bikes with rearsets and even if you can sort that out it then fouls the main stand.  I tried to fit one to my Jota and gave up.  I came to the conclusion I had to use and RGS-style stand and either bite the bullet and weld on a lug as you have done, or else make a bolt on bracket which is quite difficult to do well and is still in my will-get-around-to-it pile.  Hence I am still just using the centrestand.    But getting on and off is a million times easier with a sidestand.

 

[3CBRG]

I'll be following this thread with interest. If someone knows of an unloved 'front mount' that's not a hundred bucks...

 

[motoddrob]

Centre stands on the Motodd and SFC750. Have yet to see a need for a sidestand. Not really a fan of them. The GS BM has one but very rarely use it except if fully loaded to get off but once off it goes on the centrestand.

 

[Paul Marx]

Centre stands on the Motodd and SFC750. Have yet to see a need for a side stand. Not really a fan of them. The GS BM has one but very rarely use it except if fully loaded to get off but once off it goes on the centre stand.

You're not stiff enough yet.
Just wait till you can't get off your bike laden with saddle bags without making it a risk of terminal fall every time. Terminal in the sense that if it falls over, you won't be able to pick it up so best avoided.

SFC is a very low bike.

I've lengthened the tang on my side stands so as to flip them down with the heel and when I'm off the bike, then it's centre stand..

There's a side stand ready for my 3C in the process of restoration.

Paul

 

[Dellortoman]

The Kawa stand on the adapter bracket does not play well with left foot change bikes with rearsets and even if you can sort that out it then fouls the main stand.  I tried to fit one to my Jota and gave up.

Never had you down as a quitter Steve 

I got mine sorted pretty easily (left gearshift and rearsets). A little tweaking was required but it's not that big a problem. Certainly a whole lot easier than welding bits to the frame.

BTW, the RGS side stand is an annoying piece of crap in my opinion. The Kawasaki stand with adaptor plate is way better.

For some reason Italian bike manufacturers were never good at side stands. Many bikes were never fitted with them, and those that came with side stands, the stands were a load of crap. For example, my Benelli Sei came with a side stand but it's on a par with the Laverda factory side stands fitted to the triples - way too far forward and almost impossible to reach with the foot while sitting on the bike. I've had to make side stands for my Laverda and Ducati because the factory forgot to fit them. The one on the Guzzi LM1 was a piece of shit that required modification to make it work in a semi-acceptable manner. So far I've put up with the crappy original Benelli Sei stand because I don't ride it much. Even later bikes aren't immune to Italian side stand disease. My 2008 Benelli Tre-K's stand has busted twice, dumping the bike on the ground.

The side stand on every Jap bike I've ever owned has worked perfectly. Easy to deploy and retract, sturdy, reliable, well located near the bike's centre of gravity, and props the bike at a sensible angle. Why are Italians so bad at side stands?

PS: Oops, sorry about the rant. It just pisses me off that so many manufacturers get side stands so wrong. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[paulincayman]

My recently sold Duc 821 hyper  only  came with a side stand and it worked fine..the world of bikes is mysterious place... just bought a zzr 1200 solid side stand so have that to play with as well.