Slightly annoying thing: 2 (spine frame weld fail)

If one of my frames finished up looking like that - or breaking like that - i'd give frame building away...

Your only recourse, given the builder is not local, is to grind out the welds and re - TIG, PROPERLY!!

Even then it may be dodgy in spots. A clued up fabricator may be able to add reinforcements at any critical points.
In the absence of a proper frame jig, anything you can bolt in to hold alignments will help.
 
dja981 said:
Cosi said:
thats fucked, send it back, its a piece of shit, i dont know much about welding but idsay hewasso stonedhe forgot to turn the gas on

Ill say it once more for  emphasis, THATS FUCKED
Click to expand...


But feel qualified enough to comment.  :D :D

                                                Dave
Click to expand...

you don't need formal qualifications to tell the difference between weld and chewing gum!
 
henry said:
dja981 said:
Cosi said:
thats fucked, send it back, its a piece of shit, i dont know much about welding but idsay hewasso stonedhe forgot to turn the gas on

Ill say it once more for  emphasis, THATS FUCKED
Click to expand...


But feel qualified enough to comment.  :D :D

                                                Dave
Click to expand...

you don't need formal qualifications to tell the difference between weld and chewing gum!
Click to expand...

OK then Henry what flavour of chewing gum is it then.  :P

                                                                            Dave
 
dja981 said:
henry said:
dja981 said:
Cosi said:
thats fucked, send it back, its a piece of shit, i dont know much about welding but idsay hewasso stonedhe forgot to turn the gas on

Ill say it once more for  emphasis, THATS FUCKED
Click to expand...


But feel qualified enough to comment.  :D :D

                                                Dave
Click to expand...

you don't need formal qualifications to tell the difference between weld and chewing gum!
Click to expand...

OK then Henry what flavour of chewing gum is it then.  :P

                                                                             Dave
Click to expand...

looks like strawberry to me - it's a nancy job!
 
breganzane said:
My reply is in the other thread, repeated here:

Wow, sorry to say so but that's some of the worst welding I've ever seen on something not made by a handyman.  I would be contacting the manufacturer, the person who welded that can not have been any sort of qualified weldor.  Bad in so many ways - total lack of penetration on the shock mount (it should NEVER fracture off like that), but severe undercut on the flat tab, all on top of bad design by placing the tab on the neutral axis of the tube...

Sticking two bits of metal together is quite different to doing a proper welded joint.

Maybe a naturopath with delusions of grandeur?

SteveB
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Steve,

Problem is, the builder is indeed a qualified welder... don't ask me how he attained his "qualifications"!

No fan of his work, but I had no idea it was THAT bad.

Chris,

Do yourself a favour and check engine mount and swingarm pivot alignment, there has been a case where the engine didn't fit, wasn't even close!!

piet
 
sfcpiet said:
breganzane said:
My reply is in the other thread, repeated here:

Wow, sorry to say so but that's some of the worst welding I've ever seen on something not made by a handyman.  I would be contacting the manufacturer, the person who welded that can not have been any sort of qualified weldor.  Bad in so many ways - total lack of penetration on the shock mount (it should NEVER fracture off like that), but severe undercut on the flat tab, all on top of bad design by placing the tab on the neutral axis of the tube...

Sticking two bits of metal together is quite different to doing a proper welded joint.

Maybe a naturopath with delusions of grandeur?

SteveB
Click to expand...

Steve,

Problem is, the builder is indeed a qualified welder... don't ask me how he attained his "qualifications"!

No fan of his work, but I had no idea it was THAT bad.

Chris,

Do yourself a favour and check engine mount and swingarm pivot alignment, there has been a case where the engine didn't fit, wasn't even close!!

piet
Click to expand...

Swingarm bolt went staight in without an issue, almost slid from one side to the other without any resistance. The rear engine plates are not drilled for the engine mounts, only swingarm pivot and the mount to the downtube, which both line up well. Once Red has finish weaving his magic with the cases, barrels and head I'll do a dummy fit-up.

I've got a TIG and a MIG welder, and did all the welding on my last project, so will just do this again.

It's a real shame because everything else 'looks' to be have solid welds.

I'm not a fan of just butting shock mounts to side plates  anyhow, so I'll drill out the plates and turn up solid bosses, tap them for the mounting bolts, and weld them in from both sides.

I'm not really all that pissed off, just thought it may be better. And as Terry said, it's better to happen now, rather than when cracked over at 180klms per hour!

I still owe him EU41.00, but think that may be better spent on beer and argon gas.  :D
 
Chris,

I wonder if he's aware of what gets written on here? He's just done his business a terrible disservice. People don't forget mistakes like that.

Morison
 
There are several spine frames around in Germany, all made by the same guy. I?ve got one myself! And I never heard about any problm with the welding quality. Mine is absolutely perfect! All the bikes with these frames are used on the racetrack and none of them ever had any problem. Burkhardt, who welded the frames also builds space frames for Porsche 910 and 917. He is a real specialist for TIG welding things like this. I trust this frame and i?m gonna use my one without any limitation.
Burkhardt is participating the 200miles revival festival in Imola these days, I?ll give him a call when he is back.

H.-C.
 
@ Piet: I like you very much and I trust your work and capabilities, you know I do. However, if you have never worked on an engine that the owner was able to brake within the first 500 Km, raise your hand, please... Or if you never made a fault yourself, please do, too.

with the right forces, you can brake almost anything off. I broke the lever off the side-stand of the 750 SF I restored when I tried to bend that sucker back in place. That was a two sided, 2 cm long weld. Snapped off like made of ice even with minimal force...  >:D If you think of what force is normally going into it (at least the riders weight to lift the bike up), that was scary.

The things you mentioned regarding alignment was ONE frame out of 20 or so he meanwhile built (may it be it was the first 5 or 6 frames - I don't know). He has improved the way he assembles the frames a lot since that frame was made (one of the first 3 if I remember right...). I bet EGLI's or RAU's first frames weren't very straight either. Not sure the last ones were...  ;)

The reasons why sometimes the frame needs some adjustment to take the engine are easy:

a) not every engine has 100% the same mounting dimensions. Laverda did overcome that issue by making the engine-mounts THAT big, that they will fit anyway. The good thing is, that you can align the engine to the rear-wheel sprocket; downside is that if a bolt gets lose, the sucker vibrates and shakes like a bull.

b) Burkhardt wante the engine to be as stabile in the frame as possible. Yes, it might need some work to get it into the mountings (thats why btw. the engine mounting plates are not drilled; you can adopt it to your special engine dimensions!). No difference to the Motoplast frame I have in my workshop btw. It was impossible to get the engine in without serious bending on the engine holders...

He meanwhile did some Guzzi frames, too, for a friend and his wive who are both racing their bikes on tracks. Both are very satisfied with his work, too.

The frame is NOT a slide-on fit and yes, it needs some adoptions for your personal purposes etc.. But then it is just 1.200? all in. Compare that to other frame-builders...

His welding experience is very good. If it was a welding issue - bad luck. Show me the craftsman that has NEVER had such thing happen in his whole lifetime. But to be honest, I doubt it was.  ;)

Once again: it is easy to speculate or criticize without knowing the real facts. Chris said already it is not a problem for him to weld the piece back in place. He also confirmed the quality of the other weldings and that the alignment of swing-arm mounts are perfect. So - please treat peoples work with the respect you would like to get yourself from others. Especially as Burkhardt is not on this board and can't defend himself.

Thanks.
 
Laverdalothar said:
His welding experience is very good. If it was a welding issue - bad luck. Show me the craftsman that has NEVER had such thing happen in his whole lifetime. But to be honest, I doubt it was.  ;)
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Lothar the question and the answer are in your sentence. Craftsmen welders don't make this sort of mistake, that's why they're craftsman. Dickheads like us and appentices make this sort of mistake. If you know a professional welder you'd know what I mean.

This is poor management which will reflect badly on the craftsman I think.

Cheers
Morison
 
Bloody hell Lothar, you cant sell frames with welding like that, you could kill somebody.
Whatever happened to German Quality?



Ok calm down........ :D
 
I can't help myself now. Any half wit can tell the difference between a good weld and a crap weld. This frame has craggy, rough, uneven, bumpy welds. A craftsman's weld looks like a stack of coins lying flat on each other.

This reminds me of the British Motorcycle Industry that used to send all their "mistakes" to Australia because we were too far away for anyone to do anything about it. The pinnacle of this was the Manx Nortons that were sent here that seeped oil straight thought the cases. The Norton race shop knew they were trash but had a policy of sending them to us anyway. Australia was treated with absolute contempt back and not just by the pommies.

I hope this isn't the same type of thing for CK. The internets a powerful thing these days.
 
Sorry Lothar,

I have had first-hand experience of Burkhardts' handiwork and his attitude to motorcycle maintenance in general on several occasions and it has never been able to convince me.

silvo said:
Craftsmen welders don't make this sort of mistake, that's why they're craftsman. Dickheads like us and appentices make this sort of mistake. If you know a professional welder you'd know what I mean.
Click to expand...

Silvos comment pretty much sums it all up.

Welds as shown in Chris' pics are potentially lethal, and THAT is just not correct!

Not inclined at all to get involved in a mud slinging match and I'm probably the last to attempt to save the world, but this is no petty matter to go undiscussed.

piet

 
Yes, Burkhardt sometimes has the "that's good enough for the purpose"-attitude. If you compare his frames with the average Laverda frame or any other frame of that period, they look brilliant. Do all Laverda frames collapse? I haven't seen one (except the stress-cracks known on the RGx frames...).

Look at the welds on these pics, I think they look like they should, no?

DSC_2893.JPG


DSC_2892.JPG
 
Lothar, I respect your attempts to defend your friend's honour.

This will run back and forth for a long time no doubt.

It doesn't matter how many perfectly welded frames he has built. This one is not fit for purpose.
With the vast distance involved returning it is likely not an option. Luckily CK says he has the skills to repair the substandard work.

The real dialogue has to be between CK and the frame builder.
 
Lothar, as a frame builder myself I'd have to say from your pics that yes, I'd be happy with the welds on that frame.
BUT the craftsman welder who does my TIG work would not be happy at all with some of them.
In my experience, the thing which separates the adequate from the very good is the all - position ability of the welder - and looking at some of those welds the operator has not been able to continue the weld bead as far in one operation as a really good - and flexible - all position welder would have.
It probably makes very little difference to the actual strength of the joint - but the perceived quality takes a knock.

The perceived quality of the original frame as posted would not satisfy me.
 
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