Some advice, please

Ventodue

Hero member
Location
France
Not Laverda, but I hope someone will be able to help ...  :-*

I have a little Ducati, a Spanish-made 350 Vento.  Now, sometime in the past, one of the foot pegs has been replaced with a non-original one.  However, I?ve recently managed to find an original one which I?d now like to fit (bikes with non-matching foot rests just look weird ?)

The original peg has a 12x1 thread, and the problem is that, in order to mount the replacement peg, the frame has been drilled out to 13mm.  So the hole is now too big to use a standard thread repair - and Bigsert don?t make a 12x1.

So how to go?  Presumably a specially made threaded insert is what?s required?  If so, is there someone who'd be prepared to make me one, please?

TIA

Craig
 

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G'day Craig

Sometimes the simplest fixes turn into a headache. But as with most problems, there are several solutions:

1. You could replace the bolt on your new foot peg with one that fits the existing thread in the frame, or use a longer bolt and a nut. I dunno how practical that is. Might need cutting and welding a new threaded section on if it's a solid peg.

2. If welding is necessary, I think I'd be more inclined to weld up the hole in the frame, re-drill and tap it to the correct thread.

3. Is the threaded hole in a large area (like a gusset plate) or a tubular socket welded to the frame? If it's a tube type mounting, there may not be enough wall thickness to put an insert into it. In that case you may be able to cut it off, make up a new socket and weld it on.

4. If it's practical to go with the insert option, as you've discovered, Timesert doesn't list a 12 x 1.0 threaded insert. They will make custom inserts, but their minimum order quantity is 1000. I don't suppose you could find a use for 999 spares  :D

It's not a difficult job to make a custom insert. Any engineering shop could do it, or someone with a lathe capable of thread cutting.

The threaded hole in the frame is probably not a 13 mm thread. That's not a standard size. If the thread in the frame measures 13 mm ID, then the actual thread size will be larger. Measuring the diameter of the thread on the bolt will give you a better indication of what the thread is. If that's where you measured the 13mm, then the hole won't be big enough for an insert. But it could be anything - metric, Imperial ... who knows? If you can identify the thread and determine that it'll take a 12mm insert, all well and good. But you may have to re-drill and tap the hole.

Inserts can be made with quite thin walls if the internal and external threads are synchronised (matched pitch), but that's not going to happen with a 12 x 1.0 internal thread. The reason being that you'll never find a tap (to tap the hole in the frame) for the larger external thread with 1.0 mm pitch. So at some point, the OD of the internal thread is going to line up with the ID of the external thread, resulting in a localised thin wall.

For example, the thread root diameter for M14 x 1.5 is 12.3 mm. So if you were to make an insert with 12 x 1.0 internal and 14 x 1.5 external threads, the threads would miss each other by a very thin 0.15 mm. So I'd suggest you go bigger than M14 on the external thread. M15 is non-standard, so would be difficult to find a tap. M16 would do, in either standard 2.0 pitch or fine 1.5 pitch (13.8 and 14.4 mm thread root dia respectively). Preference would be the 1.5 mm pitch if you can find a tap at a reasonable price. That'll give you a healthy 1.2 mm of metal between internal and external thread roots (M16 x 2.0 would give you 0.8 mm thickness)

Normal thread dimensions allow for a bit of clearance, but for an insert, you want it to be somewhat tighter fit in the thread, but you don't want it so tight that you can't screw it in. I'd suggest you ask whoever is making the insert to cut the external thread slightly over-size. Give them the tap that you'll be using to tap the frame hole with. They'll use it to tap a gauge hole to trial fit on the external thread of the insert.

Install the insert with Loctite or an equivalent product.




 
Take off original footpeg, drill out hole to 13mm and fit another matching non-standard footpeg to match the other. Simples.
Sell both Ducati items on Ebay and  :D.
 
Dellortoman said:
Inserts can be made with quite thin walls if the internal and external threads are synchronised (matched pitch), but that's not going to happen with a 12 x 1.0 internal thread. The reason being that you'll never find a tap (to tap the hole in the frame) for the larger external thread with 1.0 mm pitch. So at some point, the OD of the internal thread is going to line up with the ID of the external thread, resulting in a localised thin wall.

For example, the thread root diameter for M14 x 1.5 is 12.3 mm. So if you were to make an insert with 12 x 1.0 internal and 14 x 1.5 external threads, the threads would miss each other by a very thin 0.15 mm. So I'd suggest you go bigger than M14 on the external thread. M15 is non-standard, so would be difficult to find a tap. M16 would do, in either standard 2.0 pitch or fine 1.5 pitch (13.8 and 14.4 mm thread root dia respectively). Preference would be the 1.5 mm pitch if you can find a tap at a reasonable price. That'll give you a healthy 1.2 mm of metal between internal and external thread roots (M16 x 2.0 would give you 0.8 mm thickness)

Normal thread dimensions allow for a bit of clearance, but for an insert, you want it to be somewhat tighter fit in the thread, but you don't want it so tight that you can't screw it in. I'd suggest you ask whoever is making the insert to cut the external thread slightly over-size. Give them the tap that you'll be using to tap the frame hole with. They'll use it to tap a gauge hole to trial fit on the external thread of the insert.

Install the insert with Loctite or an equivalent product.
This is pretty much what I did for a similar, but slightly smaller thread for a stripped engine mount thread

17280700996_bb32b5e2d6_c.jpg


https://www.flickr.com/photos/129012777@N08/sets/72157651788798287.
PM me with details , if you want to go that way and I'll see if my mate would turn it up for you.
 
Do it yourself Option!

If you can find a bolt to screw into your threaded hole then great!

1). Screw it in with loctite applied and lock it where you want it.
2). Cut bolt off flush with frame and dress it nice and flat with a file or something.
3). Drill a tapping hole for 12mmx1 through the bolt (are you sure it's not 1.25 as 1.00 is not standard at all?)
4). Tap out the drilled hole to your desired size.

 
Ta Cam - all food for thought.  Initial reactions (a bit rushed 'cos I've got to be going out):

Solution 1 :  Yep, it's a solid peg, similar to the attachment.  So changing the threaded section would be possible.

Solution 2 :  I like.  Just need to find me a competent welder ...  ::)

Solution 3:  The peg goes into a short piece of tube that is welded to the main frame tubing.  But it's always going to be difficult to get at, unfortunately.  But might work.

Solution 4:  Ah!  Yes, I see the potential problem.  The thread on the offending peg is 13x1.5, btw.  So as with Solution 2:  (check my measurements and ...) just need to find me a competent machine shop prepared to do the work  :D.

Thanks again,

Craig
 

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Ppuxley said:
This is pretty much what I did for a similar, but slightly smaller thread for a stripped engine mount thread. PM me with details , if you want to go that way and I'll see if my mate would turn it up for you.

Thanks v. much for the offfer.  I'll check my measurements and get back to you in a coupla days (as always happens, have now to got to be unexpectedly away  :().  Offer much appreciated!

SimonR501 said:
Do it yourself Option!  If you can find a bolt to screw into your threaded hole then great! <snip>

This too I like - thanks for the thought, Simon.  Yep, 'tis definitely 12 x1.0  No idea why ...
 
You've got some unusual threads there. While 12 x 1.0 and 13 x 1.5 fall within the range of available metric threads, they're not very common. Generally the less common a thread is, the more expensive the tap or die.

M15 fine (1.5 pitch) is also an option for the outside thread of an insert, but that's not a commonly used size either so you could expect the tab wouldn't be cheap.

If it's any help with your deliberations, the root diameter of a metric thread can be calculated easily enough:  Root dia = D - 1.082532 x P  where D is the nominal thread diameter and P is the thread pitch. In your case it needs to be greater than 12 so you can fit a 12 mm thread inside it.

Simon's solution has some merit, but if you drill and tap a M12 x 1.0 thread dead-centre in a M13 x 1.5 stud, those thread profiles overlap, so you'll likely end up with curly little slivers of thread that peel off the inside of the hole. If you choose that solution, I'd suggest you drill and tap the new hole a couple of mm off-centre in the stud (if there's enough metal in the mounting socket to allow you to move off-centre). You'll end up with a C-shaped insert with part of the new thread in the stud and part in the socket, but no loose bits of thread. If you move the hole 2 mm rearwards, you can claim to have rearsets. Well, one rearset  :D
 
I've only struck 12X1.0 once - Benelli single and twin valve clearance adjusters...Had to make a couple for a customer restoration. From memory, the head nuts were an odd one too 9X1.0 ?
Luckily my source of last resort Auto Restorations In ChCh were able to cut the threads for me. But they're used to making replacement parts for pre war Alfas etc...
If it was me doing this, I'd be tapping the frame 5/8 UNF and then tapping a suitable bolt 12X1mm.
 
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