Starter Motor

[Rocket]

Hello to all in Laverda Land,

Would any of you experienced & learned gentlemen (including any Welshman after that thrilling Aus v Wales Bronze Medal match) like to comment on this picture of a refurbished starter motor that belongs to a 180 Jota?

The end of the pinion drive did/has made contact with something and has been refaced. The original was also missing spring retainers. I plan to remove the alternator cover to see what can conflict when the starter rotor throws out and engages.
Cheers,
Rocket

 

[Rocket]

Hi Stefan,
Thanks for your comments. It is all a bit puzzling.  I bought my bike new and collected it from a Melbourne dealer in mid 1982. To the best of my knowledge no one has been near the starter motor so this is how it came from the factory, minus the two spring retainers. My picture shows how it returned from the auto electrician who said something similar to your opening comment. When I removed the SM it was jammed in the out position (it had shorted out and was heating the casing pulling 9volts! ) with the return spring wedged in the internal shaft. The only clew I have is that Made in Spain is pressed into the metal case and perhaps Manual had a bad day or Luigi back at Breganze was also not at his peak.

Unfortunately I won't get a chance to remove the alternator cover until next weekend.
Cheers,
Rocket

 

[Rocket]

Stefan, I think you are on the money.   I have measured the throw and it is a whopping 8.6mm. In my pic where the arrow points to the end of the pinion shaft a .5mm chamfer was created by something behind the alt cover.  I will inspect all of this carefully this afternoon. Its a beautiful sunny Spring day in Melbourne so a good time to be in the shed. I will post again soon.
Cheers,
Rocket

 

[Rocket]

I'm back from the shed and I have had a look behind the alt cover.  This little thing was found sitting on top of a gear!

Looks like I need to find or make another one of these and put it back on the shaft properly.
Still, it shows the quality of these motorcycles. This one has traveled 70,000 kms and will be 30 years old next year!

Long Live Laverdas!
Rocket

 

[Rocket]

Rocket, the allowed outward movement of ....... Just keep sure that the retainer at the end of the shaft "snaps" over the wire circlip and is held in place by it.

Regards,
Stefan

Hi Stefan, I'm almost there with getting this starter motor back into the bike where it belongs. I have just checked back at your picture to make sure I have the collet orientated on the shaft correctly. (Thanks Wolfgang for the new original parts ) There are two ways of orientating it. Murphies Law can be a real bastard at times :-[ so I had better get it right.

I am at the stage of trying to get that wire circlip back into its place. It is not easy!

Cheers
Rocket

 

[Rocket]

Hi Stefan, yes, I am very lucky indeed that I was unable to start the engine once the collet broke! Luck seems to come in waves. I won a raffle recently to take 70 people on a wine and cheese tasting event to the value of $1,000! Not sure I know 70 people?

Getting the wire circlip in place proved too difficult so I took the SM back to the auto-elect so he could properly earn the $180 he charged for cleaning, testing and painting it black.  Does this look right?

I will install it this Saturday morning so I can ride over and meet Wolfgang along with many other Victorian Laverdaisti, beers and BBQ at Ian Drysdale's Workshop in Springvale, and thank him for the great service he provides to us all over the world.  My bike would not be running so well without him.

And thank you very much Stefan for helping me with this issue.
Cheers,
Rocket

 

[Dellortoman]

Rather than start another thread, I'll tag my question on here ...

I sometimes have trouble starting my bike when it's hot. I hit the starter button and the starter motor won't crank the engine over. It makes a feeble effort, but can't get it over compression. It behaves just like you'd expect if the battery was almost flat, only it isn't (checks out OK with voltmeter). I put a brand new battery in a few days ago, and it still does the same thing. If I leave it for 5 minutes it'll usually start OK, and cold starting is never a problem.

Is this typical behaviour of a starter motor that's on its last legs? Hot engines have higher compression than cold ones, so maybe it's just too much for the sickly starter motor to crank it over.

Any ideas?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Dellortoman]

Thanks Stefan.

I know a bloke here who rebuilds starter motors, including re-winding the armature. I may just throw it in his direction. Might leave it until after the summer riding season though 

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Rocket]

Stefan, there is no need to be sad about the throw of the pinion gear . Looking at the two images side by side you can see the shank length of the pinion on your unit is some 2 - 3mm longer than on my unit. (1974 vs 1981?)  It was this face that did come into contact with the intermediate gear (slightly) on its last start, but only when the collet had broken allowing a longer that normal throw out.  The max throw now possible is 7.8mm ie the shank face hits the collet with the spring compressed inside the collet sleeve. I am confident that all will be well. Besides, I don't have any other options!  :  I will take your advice though and remove the alt cover again when refitting the S/M and make sure.  I also like your tip to use a second spanner on the terminal when refitting the +ve cable.

Cam, the experience with my Jota is that it has always spun the engine over convincingly every time, hot cold or any where in between. Whether it fires up on the 1st, 2nd or more spins is another question. Since fitting the Sachse ignition it starts very reliably except when it has been left in the garage unstarted for about 4 weeks or more when it may or my not start on the 1st or 2nd spin.

Cheers,
Rocket

 

[bob]

Cam,
My bike had a similar problem and it turned out to be a faulty starter clutch, makes no sense I know but the bike displayed exactly the same problem to the extent I got Optima to replace a 'faulty' battery under warranty  :-[ Worth checking if you draw a blank.

 

[Dellortoman]

Thanks for the tip Bob. You're right, it makes no sense but I'm running out of other options. Did a new set of plungers/tollers/springs fix it?

Cam

 

[Cosi]

maybe either or but my recent experience witch thankfully i was only doing 20-30kmh resulted upon removal that one of the three little allen bolts that holds the sprag retainer had decided to come loose, causint the starter to engage and well a little nasty.not so bad cooked starter and a fractured sprag housing. What we did find was that the springs had started to self implode, longest was 30mm shortest 16mm, and nasty little spring bits all arounfd the gen and within the cover. Upon talking to my neghbour "Bob" he said that the sprag will favour the stronger springs and grip on them favourably, check the springs, i know i will be with cam chain intervals, could have been real nasty at 120-150k

 

[Rocket]

Thats bad luck Cosi. No one needs that sort of stuff to happen. On the bright side there is nothing you can't fix with money.
I hope you will have it repaired by next years BSFOS because I want to see if you have broken in those new white riding boots you had at this years event. They looked decidedly wobbly as you traversed the camping area late Saturday evening!

Anyway I have some good news. The S/M went back in very nicely with the Lav firing up first kick with no horrible noises.
Attached are some photos showing how the starter pinion gear stays in the right area (2-3 mm travel) with the intermediate gear. The full travel of the S/M rotor is about 7.8 mm, however when it is in situ it cannot fully retract because the intermediate gear won't allow it to spin in reverse by much. Very clever these Italian motorcycle engineers in the '70's!
Ride on
Rocket

 

[drikko]

I hope you will have it repaired by next years BSFOS because I want to see if you have broken in those new white riding boots you had at this years ...

We're hoping he has it repaired for this weekends xmas ride!!

 

[Cosi]

theyre actually silver rocket and they were well broken in last year, fortunatly i picked up another pair in singapore recently, so have some spares for the next few years, the wobbling was definetly not attributed to the boots

As for the South African she is all well and ready to roll, just need to drop the new starter tomorow night and check / grease the rear bush as its squeking a bit

You just gotta fix my lights tomorrow Drikko.....

 

[mcnicol]

Cosi did you ever get the Teflon/stainless brake hoses I had Malcolm Cox send you for PC's SA RGS? He shipped them straight to your house. Unless I gave him the wrong address.

Ken.

 

[drikko]

I'll pack the multimeter....

 

[mcnicol]

Drikko, just clean off the fuse contacts again. I think the Seth Afrikan might benefit from a new fuse box, maybe one of the ones with blade fuses. It was kind of exciting having the lights shut off a couple of times, but before we installed the headlight relays you really couldn't see anything anyway, didn't really make much difference if the lights were on or off.
Oughta install an FF50 or FF75 at the same time too.

Ken

 

[bob]

Thanks for the tip Bob. You're right, it makes no sense but I'm running out of other options. Did a new set of plungers/tollers/springs fix it?

Cam

Sadly Cam no! The Atlas starter clutch is notoriously fragile and I ended up buying an expensive after market starter clutch. Since fitting the new unit the starting issues disappeared and the battery will spin it up like a good 'un. Still can't work out why the duff starter clutch made the battery seem sluggish though....