D
dja981
Guest
50p says it's the box oh okay i'll make it a pound.
Dave
Dave
Reggie,
Do you still have the bung fitted in the switch access hole?
Ingress of moisture can also cause starting/running problems, as well as long term corrosion with associated problems. A bit of gaffer tape is just as good if you have misplaced/lost/needed the bung for something else...
piet
Do you still have the bung fitted in the switch access hole?
Ingress of moisture can also cause starting/running problems, as well as long term corrosion with associated problems. A bit of gaffer tape is just as good if you have misplaced/lost/needed the bung for something else...
piet
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
Still have bung! I can start the bike, especially now I know what's going on, and if it craps out I have the BMW recovery insurance.
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
Reggy, have you removed the old wiring when you installed the witt or did you leave by chance the resistors in. I think the RGS has them, too, right?? If so, get them removed, please...
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
Resistors? All out I think. The wiring is as it should be- there ain't much of it really. This could still be a wiring thing, although I'm damned if I can find the problem. I reckon replacing the o/e switchgear with something more modern and perhaps less worn has moved up the list though.
Just a thought, Reggie.
What plugs and caps are you using? Checked resistors?
DMC systems are resistance sensitive. Resistance at plugs and/or caps should be around 5K-ohms. Use either resistor plugs or resistor caps with normal copper-core cable, but not both.
piet
What plugs and caps are you using? Checked resistors?
DMC systems are resistance sensitive. Resistance at plugs and/or caps should be around 5K-ohms. Use either resistor plugs or resistor caps with normal copper-core cable, but not both.
piet
IIS
Full member
"Borrow" the missuss hair dryer and pre heat the module to 50C or so and try the self test. Towel around the box will help the heating of the module. Allow to cool for 15-30 minutes and retest, heat again to see if a pattern appears. This test needs a reliable 12V on the module. Just an idle guess, reset circuit is no operating as designed, ie module replacement or repair if possible. HTH John.
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Reggie3cl
Guest
Hmm, long skinny round things you say? There are some black things about 25 or 30mm long by about 10mm diameter on white wires (IIRC) - too late to go out and look, but I would have thought anything superflous would have been ripped out during the install. Never looked at them, I must admit :
If they are still there should I just remove them and rejoin the wires or what?
The caps are normal NGK 5Kohm ones with B8ES plugs, so that bit is OK
Hey, my shed is carpeted and I have my own hair dryer in there thank you. (well I hardly need it for myself do I?) I'll try heating it once I've checked for unauthorized resistance (futile, I know*), maybe the less than balmy 6 (in May!) degrees we had today is mucking up summat.
*aw c'mon, the Borg, geddit? Oh, please yerselves.
If they are still there should I just remove them and rejoin the wires or what?
The caps are normal NGK 5Kohm ones with B8ES plugs, so that bit is OK
Hey, my shed is carpeted and I have my own hair dryer in there thank you. (well I hardly need it for myself do I?) I'll try heating it once I've checked for unauthorized resistance (futile, I know*), maybe the less than balmy 6 (in May!) degrees we had today is mucking up summat.
*aw c'mon, the Borg, geddit? Oh, please yerselves.
IIS
Full member
Man with own hair dryer, very appealing to the ladies whom search for the "complete man". Reggie is one such man it would appear
FWIW on ignition coils and supply volts. Say 3 ohms DC resistance on primary winding. At 14V the power is 14squared divided by the resistance. 65 Watts. At 9V 27 Watts, less than half the power is available for cold cranking ignition energy. A more relevant figure would be flux density which is NI or number of primary winding turns, times the saturation current ( E/I ) 14/3 = 4.6Amps 9/3 = 3 amps. Say 100 turns on the primary ( most ignition coils are 100:1 turns ratio ). In Ampere Turns, 460 as against 300 at the lower volts applied. Why you see a rapidly weakening spark as the voltage sags, for a seemingly small voltage drop. Just when you need the most spark energy cold engine cranking start.
The IIS TA does not shutdown on high supply volts, though the coils will take a beating if allowed to continue. The IIS TCI can work all day from a supply of 6V to 35V without damage to ignition module OR ignition coil ie 400V is appled to the ignition coil primary no matter the supply volts of the charging system. How i designed it.
HTH John.
FWIW on ignition coils and supply volts. Say 3 ohms DC resistance on primary winding. At 14V the power is 14squared divided by the resistance. 65 Watts. At 9V 27 Watts, less than half the power is available for cold cranking ignition energy. A more relevant figure would be flux density which is NI or number of primary winding turns, times the saturation current ( E/I ) 14/3 = 4.6Amps 9/3 = 3 amps. Say 100 turns on the primary ( most ignition coils are 100:1 turns ratio ). In Ampere Turns, 460 as against 300 at the lower volts applied. Why you see a rapidly weakening spark as the voltage sags, for a seemingly small voltage drop. Just when you need the most spark energy cold engine cranking start.
The IIS TA does not shutdown on high supply volts, though the coils will take a beating if allowed to continue. The IIS TCI can work all day from a supply of 6V to 35V without damage to ignition module OR ignition coil ie 400V is appled to the ignition coil primary no matter the supply volts of the charging system. How i designed it.
HTH John.
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
Aye, nice piece of kit that IIS. I still feel pretty confident that this something other than the actual box, will have a look for resistors today.
If they are there, do they just come out and I rejoin the wires?
If they are there, do they just come out and I rejoin the wires?
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
No resistors- just a couple of big black shrouded bullet connectors. I've cleaned up the contacts on the kill switch, will check its together-ness. I think I'll sling it back together today, I don't think there is too much else I can do. If it craps out, too bad.
IIS
Full member
Mmmmmm, perhaps am missing something here.... The self test fires up after some little time with power applied to the module, yes no? Once firing on the test position has worked, do you restore the module to required ignition curve? With power applied and or power cycle to restore reset condition on the module with curve selected, does the engine fire up as normal? Anti start Resistors or no, the self test on a fully charged battery would work from instant power is applied. The resistors only give grief on cold cranking and sagging battery volts as mentioned a few posts back.
No short cut tests for power to actual module supply wires, attach a voltmeter or lamp if desired close to the module power wires. Even if it means cutting the wires and stripping/rejoining the wires to make available a test point(s). No measuring frame to supply wire on the module, bypasses the return to battery wire, and is not a proper test. Apologies if you already know these aspects Reggie, once your sure power is good, then heat the module with power off and then instigate the self test selection. Or power it up and heat the module to see if the unit comes alive more quickly. I personally would not ride it out the gate... Ask Red about pushing Laverda's home.
Smells like a reset issue on the microprocessor to me, if a simple RC network then a leaking capy would account for the symptoms as outlined as read in the topic. Unfortunately it is only an outside chance the heat cycle will flush out a capy problem. In my dim memory, and its black type dim, i had one or two DMC's with reset issues. What version of DMC are we talking about here, blue or bronze coloured?
Not a help directly the following with the DMC above, yet may be of interest to some about best approaches to digital design of ignition systems.
The IIS uses a digital reset generator ( no RC network ) with under voltage detect and reset clamping on under voltage. Rejected the simple RC reset circuit as per basic application notes from manufacturers. Riding shotgun on the reset generator is a hardware watchdog timer, if the control program fails to reset the dog then it trips the reset generator. Also a software internal watchdog riding shotgun on the microprocessor internal reset generator ie not the hardware reset circuit, 3 levels of power or control program fail detection, worst case is 1.5 seconds while the whole IIS is reset on massive transit fault. This is done while the engine is running, never will you need to stop and turn the ignition off and on, it is automatic on the IIS. Never had it trip on me in 17 years. You pay for hardware chips that will do the job with safety, not rely on internal software watchdogs, too risky. Well i would say that of course.
John.
No short cut tests for power to actual module supply wires, attach a voltmeter or lamp if desired close to the module power wires. Even if it means cutting the wires and stripping/rejoining the wires to make available a test point(s). No measuring frame to supply wire on the module, bypasses the return to battery wire, and is not a proper test. Apologies if you already know these aspects Reggie, once your sure power is good, then heat the module with power off and then instigate the self test selection. Or power it up and heat the module to see if the unit comes alive more quickly. I personally would not ride it out the gate... Ask Red about pushing Laverda's home.
Smells like a reset issue on the microprocessor to me, if a simple RC network then a leaking capy would account for the symptoms as outlined as read in the topic. Unfortunately it is only an outside chance the heat cycle will flush out a capy problem. In my dim memory, and its black type dim, i had one or two DMC's with reset issues. What version of DMC are we talking about here, blue or bronze coloured?
Not a help directly the following with the DMC above, yet may be of interest to some about best approaches to digital design of ignition systems.
The IIS uses a digital reset generator ( no RC network ) with under voltage detect and reset clamping on under voltage. Rejected the simple RC reset circuit as per basic application notes from manufacturers. Riding shotgun on the reset generator is a hardware watchdog timer, if the control program fails to reset the dog then it trips the reset generator. Also a software internal watchdog riding shotgun on the microprocessor internal reset generator ie not the hardware reset circuit, 3 levels of power or control program fail detection, worst case is 1.5 seconds while the whole IIS is reset on massive transit fault. This is done while the engine is running, never will you need to stop and turn the ignition off and on, it is automatic on the IIS. Never had it trip on me in 17 years. You pay for hardware chips that will do the job with safety, not rely on internal software watchdogs, too risky. Well i would say that of course.
John.
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
That's correct- once it has fired up, turning off and then back on several times it will fire. Go away for a while and then retry and the delay returns.
Have done, problem shows up the same as on test circuit.
Have tested kill switch with bulb, no bad result in 50 tries. Have tested (new) ignition switch, no bad results in 10 tries.
Power is definitely getting to the module.
Ha ha, you funny
Have heated box (bronze) and no re-ocurrance of problem. Am giving it a bit of time to settle and then will re heat and try again. Watch this space...
OK, went out and warmed up the unit, switched on and away she went, no failures. Am letting it cool down properly and will re try.
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
Well that has to be over 1 1/2 hours of cooling an it's still fine. Dunno whether that is a good thing or bad...
R
Reggie3cl
Guest
Still OK- fires test setting as well as curve 7 & bike starts. No fault even with box properly cold- it's about 8 degrees c here so cool (some would say fekkin' freezing) I'm assuming that the heating of the unit would not produce a permanent fix, so I'm mystified. At least I now understand another section of the wiring loom! Put it back together now, have to see how it goes...
Mikesps
New member
- Location
- Kuala Lumpur
Maybe you dried some dampness out of it by heating it up? If it was an electronic problem, I would expect it to get worse at higher temperature.
Mike
Mike
IIS
Full member
Mikesps said:
Hello there ( mikesps ), can go either way thermal issues, work better or worse. Heating and cooling can provide a measure of invoking a fault under control conditions. Many is the time when you make something worse it seems a not useful result, yet it tells you that the fault is close to what you are changing, even if in the wrong direction. You do the opposite of what made it worse and you should be on the enlightened path of discovery and the self satisfied grin that you fixed it yourself.
Ok Reggie, you have made a controlled progress, well done. As you say a mixed blessing the result of the heating cycle, yet the fault can now be acted upon at the most probable location, ie the wiring can be left alone for the next 20 years....give or take 20 years. Always keep in mind there may be two or more faults with same/similar symptoms or combined effect. Have a good look with magnifying glass ( me, i cannot see a thing these days, blind as a bat ), at the plug in connector mating surfaces, your looking for indications of contamination, water is often the case. White powder residue, connection pin(s) a different colour to the others, perhaps water ingress into the back of the connector on the printed circuit board side, which will be difficult to see.
Me, i would warm the module up in the oven, on lowest heat. Whom cares what the wife says, be brave...stand up to her... yes i had the same outcome, lost 5kgs due to lack of cooked meals... free advice is worth every cent/p you paid for it..... Nothing to loose warming the module ( not over 50C! ). Could also be a clock crystal problem, lets not do that one just yet.... Your call Reggie, is there a spare DMC II you could take with you when out on a ride or test rides?
HTH John.
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Reggie3cl
Guest
Hey John
I'll take a look at the pins next time the bike is outside. I need a head torch and a magnifying glass these days too. : First thing is to see how she fires up after a night standing. If I still have problems I'll chuck it in the oven. Unfortunately no easy access to another box, but if it needs to go back it only has to go to Germany.
I think this is where Paul Marx steps in and says something about points...
I'll take a look at the pins next time the bike is outside. I need a head torch and a magnifying glass these days too. :
First thing is to see how she fires up after a night standing. If I still have problems I'll chuck it in the oven. Unfortunately no easy access to another box, but if it needs to go back it only has to go to Germany.I think this is where Paul Marx steps in and says something about points...