Top End of an 8000 rpm 750 Breganzie Twin

The stock 750 SF1/2/3 head is very inefficient, the 750SFC Eletronica head only slightly better.  If a free-flowing port with no restrictions were to be rated at 100%, the stock 750 would be around 35%, the SFC head would yield 45...  In comparison, the triple head would rate about 60%, sort of ok, but still not very good.  Typically, 2-valve jap sports bikes of the era would show around 55-65%.

After a lot of work on the flowbench, a '75 SFC head gave something around 65-70%, representing just about all that was possible within the stock casting without reverting to welding and re-shaping, resulting in 85 healthy ponies compared to the 70-odd hp the dyno showed before the porting was performed.

In my experience,  flowbench work is worth every minute.  If a 5% gain can be achieved at the bench, this will invariably show on the dyno in the same proportion.  Don't need to simulate the piston going up and down, a dummy cylinder is all that is needed to simulate the conditions within the combustion chamber.  Very often, no great changes are needed to achieve giant leaps.  Of the 30-odd hp gain I achieved with the Moto Witt racing H-D Sportsters, 20 were found at the flowbench, simply with careful re-profiling of the valve seats and carb intake choice.  We were limited to using a variety of stock H-D parts, no metal was allowed to be removed!  Just about the only parts allowed to be modified were the valve seats, reading the rulebook thoroughly was to prove invaluable. :D

Once the principles of flow dynamics are grasped, it isn't too dificult to achieve decent results without a flowbench, but having one to verify any changes is more than helpfull!

piet
 
Piet's musings remind me of Erik Buell going AMA racing a few years back. The rules said the crankcases could be modified but must be based upon series production items.  The intention of the rule is pretty clear but the wording must have been such that it was deemed OK when Erik turned up with a totally bespoke engine.  When questioned about the crankcases not being anything like a Sportster or similar Buell, the response was that they were "modified Sportster cases".  In this case the modification involved melting them down and recasting them into a different shape!
In AMA land that seemed perfectly logical, though i doubt that any of the Jap companies would have got away with a similar interpretation of the rules. :D
 
MotoJouni said:
Is this number a comparison with constant flow compared to straight pipe of similar diameter or what?



sfcpiet said:
The stock 750 SF1/2/3 head is very inefficient, the 750SFC Eletronica head only slightly better.  If a free-flowing port with no restrictions were to be rated at 100%, the stock 750 would be around 35%, the SFC head would yield 45...  In comparison, the triple head would rate about 60%, sort of ok, but still not very good.  Typically, 2-valve jap sports bikes of the era would show around 55-65%.

After a lot of work on the flowbench, a '75 SFC head gave something around 65-70%, representing just about all that was possible within the stock casting without reverting to welding and re-shaping, resulting in 85 healthy ponies compared to the 70-odd hp the dyno showed before the porting was performed.

In my experience,  flowbench work is worth every minute.  If a 5% gain can be achieved at the bench, this will invariably show on the dyno in the same proportion.  Don't need to simulate the piston going up and down, a dummy cylinder is all that is needed to simulate the conditions within the combustion chamber.  Very often, no great changes are needed to achieve giant leaps.  Of the 30-odd hp gain I achieved with the Moto Witt racing H-D Sportsters, 20 were found at the flowbench, simply with careful re-profiling of the valve seats and carb intake choice.  We were limited to using a variety of stock H-D parts, no metal was allowed to be removed!  Just about the only parts allowed to be modified were the valve seats, reading the rulebook thoroughly was to prove invaluable. :D

Once the principles of flow dynamics are grasped, it isn't too dificult to achieve decent results without a flowbench, but having one to verify any changes is more than helpfull!

piet
 
Years ago I read a book called Triumph Tuning by Stan Shelton.Very good read,lots on friction losses,shiming to remove friction.The porting bit had a lot on flow at small valve openings,benefiting acceleration out of corners.Its a good basic book,Triumph specific but general principals carried over and I learned a lot from it.
 
Stan Shenton was Boyers of Bromley, who in turn developed the Boyer ignition system engineered and made by Ernie Bransdon hence Boyer/Bransdon.
This was further aided by Phill Todd of Motod who designed and developed at his own expense the Todd/Boyer or Todd/Bransdon ignition for triples.Which a lot have benefitted from over the years and before John Wilson/Redax/Volker Saches

The fastest road triple that I have ever ridden was fitted with this ignition and so was the fastest road 750, they were both owned by Phil Todd.

so its all intertwined really isn't it?
CLEM
 
My point was that I think many jap bikes could be considerably improved.

Possibly, but lots of them are making near on 200bhp/litre right off the showroom floor, far more than most people can handle. 

 
Not with carburetted 2 valve heads.
I recall hearing that the best 2 valve Jap head for flow was a GS1000 Suzuki.
 
phil37 said:
Hi Mj - If you do something and it works - then the theory isn't worth a bag of beans. - regards - Phil

Good onya Phil. A bit of rock-solid workshop philosophy  :D

I've often heard people say that an idea might work in theory, but not in practice, as if to imply that the physical system (whatever it might be) is not behaving itself.
It seems obvious to me that if theory and reality don't agree, then you need to refine your theory, which is easier said than done.
Accurately modelling the real world with algorithms is mind-bogglingly difficult when you start looking at all the possible variables. In nearly all cases, theories are only an approximation of what really goes on. Even theories we consider axiomatic, like Newtons Laws of Motion, don't stand up to close scrutiny.
 
Theory is for idealists, practical is for realists!

Although it has to be said that Einsteins theory was a doozy - E = mc2
So an almost infinite amount of energy (E) can be harnessed from a tiny mass (m) if a massive number like the speed of light (c squared) is utilised. He was thinking about the universe, but stumbled upon nuclear weapons/power (much to his disgust).

So some theories can work, but not for the purpose you first envisaged.
 
But if basic physical laws are disobeyed, no matter how nice the workmanship is, it simply won't work.

I've seen beautifully worked cylinder heads that yielded less flow and power than the stock heads they were derived from.

piet
 
But if basic physical laws are disobeyed,

Not a problem here, the OP has a 60 horsepower bike which weighs about a ton and will wheelie downhill...
 
To quote the late Terry Pratchett,

"Well....... it's Quantum, innit?"

H.
 
Reggie3cl said:
Not a problem here, the OP has a 60 horsepower bike which weighs about a ton and will wheelie downhill...

...in 3rd gear! :o

MJ, using a simple straight tube of the same diameter and corresponding length to a given port supplies you with a benchmark to work with.  If you manage to achieve 60-70% of that figure with a Laverda head, you're doing extremely well.  Well-designed downdraught ports as found on most modern sports bikes will yield 80% and more, no way a Laverda head will even come close.

piet
 
  I agree with Pete that it's easy to have a beautiful looking "head job" that may well detract from performance - much the same as a weld that looks great but will fail under any stress.
    We initially had our heads done by an ex Weslake bloke - I liked to listen to him and see his work - his heads have been on a few world championship winners quite a few times. I would have loved to have afforded a flowbench and, more importantly, the time to learn how to use it to good effect. When we had our dyno - my own bike only ever managed  more than a day at a time once.
  At the time - probably really when the GSX-R750, came out - did I realise how much the Japs had improved their motor performance now that spine frames were ditched - I could look down the inlet and see most of the valve(s) - closing the angle between port and valve seemed the way to go. Modern technology will have moved way past laverda's so I'm not surprised that a Laverda port won't get anywhere near the modern jap type - but won't stop us trying!! - regards - Phil
 
MotoJouni said:
^I could believe that.

But what you mean "same diameter"? What diameter? Does your diameter of your reference tube of "same diameter and corresponding length" has a diameter of the inlet valve or port diameter from the carb side of the cylinderhead? I mean I want to understand your numbers.

If I start to work on a 30mm port, I'd use a 30mm tube as a reference.  If I want to do a 40mm port, a 40mm tube...

No use just "improving" the flow by 100%.  100% of what?  If you start off with just 10% of total capabilities, a 100% improvement will yield 20%, still pretty pathetic. 

You can't start on a journey to somewhere if you don't know where you are to begin with. 

piet
 
MotoJouni said:
old jap bikes to new jap bikes, old european bikes to new european bikes, new jap bikes to new european bikes or
old jap bikes to old european bikes.

When it comes to performance............the new ones are better.

Unless for racing, I wonder why people performance tune old bikes. I can get on my wife's CBR600, or my BMW and go nuts...for a lot less money.

For classic racing - OK, spend money!
 
Harry Lime said:
When it comes to performance............the new ones are better.

Unless for racing, I wonder why people performance tune old bikes. I can get on my wife's CBR600, or my BMW and go nuts...for a lot less money.

For classic racing - OK, spend money!

It's a challenge... much the same as climbing a mountain.  And just as rewarding if things work out as you planned.

Since the very beginnings of motorisation, petrolheads have tried to get the bloody things to go ever faster.  Why not take something old and out-dated but with a bit of potential and unleash it?  A CBR600 may be quicker than anything that rolled out of the gates in Breganze, but chasing (and maybe even catching) one on a Laverda triple is a whole lot more fun. :D

piet
 
Harry Lime said:
When it comes to performance............the new ones are better.

Unless for racing, I wonder why people performance tune old bikes. I can get on my wife's CBR600, or my BMW and go nuts...for a lot less money.

For classic racing - OK, spend money!
Very good point, but it misses that basic instinct that urges us to squeeze a little bit more out of what we have.

In the late 70s I worked with a guy who was indirectly taught how to port Kawasaki 900 heads by Pops Yoshimura (he'd worked with and alongside the Australian importer who I believe had been taught by the man himself). By using all the basics like a moderate increase in capacity, higher compression, bigger carbs, altered cam timing and lift, open exhaust, bigger valves and theoretically sound port work (no flow bench in sight) we could easily double the rear wheel horsepower of a Kwaka 9 motor. All that with fantastic tractability and mid-range, and a wild top end. Within 10+ years that degree of tuning and performance became the norm for an off the floor Japanese sports bike (as per the GSX-R 750 Suzuki Phil mentioned - funnily enough, I never actually thought my SFC kitted and tuned SF was 'slow' until I deliberately sought a 'comparison' (ie I baited the guy) in acceleration on a freeway on-ramp - the rate that thing disappeared from about 90kph was astonishing.

I employed some of what I learnt on my own SF head and did the usual easy std  tuning stuff (SFC cams, up the compression, open exhaust), but have always stopped short of going crazy, because I agree with Harry. I love what Steve B has done, to be honest, it's completely blown me away, but it's a massive investment in time and money and mine is a road bike first and foremost - and in the modern moto world, a very slow one. I like it that way - ride the wheels off it in relative safety and in the real world it will still keep many a cowboy trying to come to terms with 200hp honest.

Speaking of heads, am I wrong in saying that a very clever man from Melbourne by the name of Bob Brown built his own 4-valve heads for a Pantah, put a guy called Kevin McGee on it, and won lots of races with it - a head design that ended up being the forebear to Ducati's world-beating Superbikes? Could be wrong ...

Having said all that ... Ron, I have this great idea that I'm going to run by Red: a 6-valve, triple-swirl combustion chamber Breganzie twin-cam twin head that'll be good enough for the old girls to drag off ... gee, maybe even a FJ900 Yammie!!

Piss-takes aside, I am REALLY enjoying this thread!
QF

ps If the head design in 1970 of our SFs incorporated all of today's technological sophistication (oh, OK, throw in short-stroke big bores and an EMS), what would the result feel like? Faster, absolutely ... but nothing like what I love about my bike, that's for sure!!!
 
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