Tubeless tire valve stems for thick web wheels?

[Paul LeClair]

Hi Paul I would certainly tread cautiously if considering running your thick webb wheels tubeless, you know what happens if you have instant deflation????????

Hi Maurice

yes, I know what happens if instant deflation were to happen. However, I am also aware of what happens if I get a flat in a tubed Laverda tire when I am in the middle of no where and can't get the tire off the rim to fix the tube. I am much more comfortable with the thought of running tubeless (as my other two Laverda triples do) and carrying a proper tubeless tire plugger and compact 12v air pump.

as difficult as it is to break the tire bead on a Laverda rim, and the complaints from my tire mounting guy about the Laverda rims and how tough they are to work with, I think instant deflation is just as unlikely on the Laverda as on my ZX14. Personal opinion only, my personal risk assessment, not recommending this course of action to anyone else.

ask Marty how remote some of the mountainous areas we were riding in actually are, same idea as some of the remote areas of Australia, if you break down you are on your own and outside of cellular coverage range.

Paul LeClair

 

[Grant]

When was the last time you had a flat in a remote region, or any region for that matter?
You obviously have assimilated the risk of fitting tubeless tyres to a tube only type rim and have decided you are ok with that.
How would your insurance company react if the found out you put in a claim (for any damage) and then they found out you had non-approved tyres on the rims?
I have had one blow out on thick web alloys (120 Jota) and I am convinced my life was saved by the fact the tyres were so difficult to unseat from the rim.
Front tyre blow out at Shap on the M6 in northern England at 95mph.
By the time I got it stopped on the hard shoulder (very quickly) it had unseated itself completely from one side of the wheel but the other side held in there and allowed me to stop without metal to tarmac.
Regardless of how a tubeless tyre would have reacted this one saved me from disaster.

 

[Reggie3cl]

With you there, Grant.  Haven't had a flat in 20 years.  When I run tubes I carry a tin of Finnilec, mostly for the voodoo effect, but also because it works.

 

[LJ-2]

Seem to remember Sir Sid here had a can of Finnilec go off in his top box when we were at the Bol D"Or many years ago , rubber clad clothing mmmm

 

[Paul LeClair]

never heard of "Finnilec", had to Google it. So, tire sealant in a pressurized can. Are you saying that would temporarily fix a flat in a motorcycle tire with a tube?

I don't carry a spare in the trunk of my old Spitfire car, I carry a couple of cans of a product similar to Finnilec. I have always assumed it would be useless with tubed tires. If it would work with tubed tires I would be happy to run a tube, especially with the trouble I am having with fitting a tubeless valve stem. It is now apparent the Ducati valve stems I bought are not likely going to work.

on a suggestion earlier in this thread, I cut the tire off the rear wheel. Still can't break the bloody bead on the shred of tire remaining, bloody hell, but at least I got at the inner rim to test fit the tubeless valve stem, doesn't fit anywhere near enough tightly enough to properly seal even if I butchered the inside of the rim, will take a bigger valve stem with bigger rubber sealing ring..... a couple of photos of the mess I am making....

in short, looks increasingly more likely that tubes are in these rims immediate future unless I can find a better tubeless valve stem solution......

Paul LeClair

ps what difference does it make if there is a tube in the tire or not in relation to a tire bead potentially breaking loose at speed if the tire loses air pressure? If the tube goes flat how could it assist in keeping the tire on the bead? I guess I am missing something basic about this issue..... ??? ???

 

[Reggie3cl]

never heard of "Finnilec", had to Google it. So, tire sealant in a pressurized can. Are you saying that would temporarily fix a flat in a motorcycle tire with a tube?

I am- once picked upa flat near Dover on the way to France and the Finilec repair held for the whole two weeks (naughty, should have had it fixed but I was young and skint).  Won't fix a tear, but a nail hole, yes.  It comes out like shaving foam and seals the hole- you squirt it in and ride immediately.  I wouldn't use itin a tubeless because tyre fitters dont like rubbery gungy foam, but in a tubed tyre as a get you home it works.

Seem to remember taking a tin of it to Bill Dunlop on his 3CL for one of the rallies up here- he did the rally and rode home.

 

[Grant]

It's not the fact there is a tube in it, but the fact it was designed to run tube type tyres on that rim.
Fitting tubeless type tyres means a different construction of tyre and also a different profile where the bead of the tyre seats on the rim.

 

[LJ-2]

Goop for inner tubes was developed by the Post Office apparently to stop their bicycles getting so many punctures, put it in before you get a puncture, made up of liquid sealant and tiny particles of rubber, if there is a puncture it all rushes out towards the hole and seals it.

 

[Shajota]

I've had a flat on the lav in a fairly remote area. Actually used some finilec and it stayed up for a while, but wouldn't keep pressure (puncture must have been a bit too big because have used it previously with great effect). Managed to ride a fair way slowly to a small town where I parked the bike behind a local pub, took the back wheel off and walked to the highway where I hitched back to where I lived. Had the tyre repaired and a mate drove me back there about a week later to collect the bike :-[ That was over 20 years ago so doesn't happen often.
Agree there aint much options to fix roadside, but certainly doesn't happen everyday and hitching can be fun..................... :-X

 

[motoddrob]

Tubes are a pain in the arse, finnilec isn't a 100% guarantee fix, I no longer travel with tyre levers, have known of many lav rims running tubeless tyres and never heard of issues arising from do it so in my mind I'm comfortable with doing it. Actually ran my front lav rim tubeless for many years, Astralite on the back so no issue there. Pretty sure you need to machine a flat on the inside of the valve hole to take the valve stem. Mate did mine along time ago so not sure what exactly was done. Now running Suzuki rims so the non issue is no longer a non issue
Once got a front flat while riding the SF3 from Melbourne back to Perth somewhere in bumfuck South Oz. The valve stem had torn away from the tube so not fixable. Was back in 1980 and on a Sunday so back then nothing was open. My mate had to ride 100km back to the last town to find a tube and came back with nothing. Luckily, in the mean time some guy riding a BM sidecar came by. he had a spare 19" tube I managed to stuff into the tyre.
Back in those days always traveled with tyre levers, patches and menzal pump, unfortunely not a tube!!
Tubeless is the only option for me these days, apart from the SFC of course.

 

[chrisk]

My mate had to ride 100km back to the last town to find a tube and came back with nothing. Tubeless is the only option for me these days.

T'was then too. 

Bumfuck SouthOz ............ I'm going before this turn into a Civil War  (bolt)

 

[Tippie]

From what I have been told a tubeless tyre is highly unlikely to blow out but will slowly deflate, unlike a tubed type which can instantly deflate. So a big plus for tubeless there.
A lot of the classic guys here run tubeless on wire wheels, seal up every nipple and fit a tubeless valve and I have not heard of any problems with them either.
Grant?s point about insurance is valid for those with comprehensive insurance, but they will try everything to weasel out of paying, probably nitpick on tyre size and any other modification not listed in the contract too.
It sounds like Paul would best get a flat machined to his rim if he wants to go tubeless. With a dremel you don?t habe to cut through to the rim, just cut the cords in the bead.
Agree with Rob too, there are lots of Lavs getting around tubeless and they are a right bastard to get off the bead, and with many tyres that, and getting it out onto the bead again is usually the hardest part in tyre changing.

 

[Terry Dymond]

Bum fuck South Oz hey, that's good coming from the state that time forgot

 

[laverdakeith]

I've ran tubless tires for a very long time on Laverda rims with no problems whatsoever, machine a little flat for an 8mm rubber sealed steel valve using an 8mm counterbore tool I now also machine the rims profle to incorporate a safety edge as per "modern" tubless rim design as my lathe will swing an 18 inch rim, this does two things, it lets the tire seat properly as Laverda rims are oversize and it makes for easier tire changes down the line. As Tippie states sudden deflation is far less likely with a tubless tire because they can't tear like a tube can, if you hit something big enough to knock the bead out of the rim or cause a tire to rupture you are off anyway.


  Keith

 

[motoddrob]

Bum fuck South Oz hey, that's good coming from the state that time forgot

Not aimed at SA Terry, you'll find bumfuck nowhere all over the country including the place I live. It's just a place you don't want to find yourself stranded in

Agree with Tippy,
          "From what I have been told a tubeless tyre is highly unlikely to blow out but will slowly deflate, unlike a tubed type which can instantly deflate. So a big plus for tubeless"

Would rather have a flat with a tubeless radial on a Laverda rim than a tubed crossply tyre on the same rim. I've never had a flat on the front since using radial tyres so can't say how they react but the several rear flats I've had have always been slow to deflate.

As for insurance, my bikes have never had it so no issue there!!

 

[Terry Dymond]

Not a problem mate, knew what you meant, just didn't want to disappoint Chris

 

[henrywillms]

Paul, if you provide me the minimum length of the valve stems you need, I will see if the shop who provided mine still has them. It was a few years ago and they were just from their regular in stock supply so not sure they still are using that style, but they could be.  As I recall some Ducati valve stems do work, but I don't recall which model. Like Keith I had the machining done with a special cutter in a milling machine, any machine shop could do it,  but I am sure you could use a dremmel  or small grinder to do it. 

 

[Paul LeClair]

It's not the fact there is a tube in it, but the fact it was designed to run tube type tyres on that rim.
Fitting tubeless type tyres means a different construction of tyre and also a different profile where the bead of the tyre seats on the rim.

but everyone is fittings tires these days, whether they are BT 45's, Michelin Activ's, or whatever, that are designed to be tubeless. If the tire bead profile is actually different, then whether there is a tube in there or not likely won't make a difference, and we should all be sending our wheels to Keith for rim/bead profile modification?

anyways, went and bought some tubes for this time around to use with the new Michelin Activ's going on the thick web wheels later today.

Paul LeClair

 

[Laverda SF]

I don't need Keith to shoe or balance my Borrania  Rims. Of course you have to it manually with spoons and leather.

You're looking at least 4 hours of work between 2 people and one person that know what there' re doing - Me.

 

[sfcpiet]

I don't need Keith to shoe or balance my Borrania  Rims. Of course you have to it manually with spoons and leather.

You're looking at least 4 hours of work between 2 people and one person that know what there' re doing - Me.

You and your mates must have a lot of spare time Ron. ???  I manage in just under an hour from wheel off the bike to wheel back in, by myself!   Decent tyre levers do the job a lot better than spoons, using a tyre mounting machine cuts down another 15 minutes.  I've seen footage of ISDT riders doing it manually in under 10 minutes, in the rain and mud to boot!

I've needed to fix a flat a couple of times while on the road, luckily a service station was close by and access to compressed air made bead-seating a bit easier. 

But, it's been at least 20 years since my last punctured tyre (knock wood!), hope it will take another 20 years to my next...

piet