The future?

thats a bloody good point, I hadn't even have that idea enter my head
see my answer above. We have Gas-Stations almost EVERYWHERE today. Every 5 kilometers on a highway, you have a parking spot or even a gas-station. If these gas stations have just 1-2 chargers, all it takes is getting these folks to the charger. you could develop a mobile power generator that delivers enough power to make them move 20 kilometers. To charge enough for 20 kilometers does not take longer than filling in 10 liters of gas...

The secret of a bright future is to focus on solutions, not on problems... 😉
 
Before you ask: my bike get's recharged by the solar system on the roof of my house... ;-)
Perfect!

We produce around 68% of the electricity we need ourselves.
In 2020 we produced 3,070.84 kWh which saves about 2,2 to CO²/year. We feed what we don't need into the local power grid.
The investment paid for itself after just 7 years - and we have a good feeling.

By the way - we also get warm water (bathroom, heating, washing machine and dishwasher) through solar energy.
Here the amortization is closer to 10 years but you have the good feeling from the first day.

Thomas aus LAU
 
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Yep - exactly. We have solar power for warm water since we built the house 17 years back. We installed the PV system September last year as we finally had the cash. Wished I had done that years ago... We produce a max of 8,x KW until now with a maxi of almost 50 kw/h per day, which allows the washing machine, the dish washer, the laundry dryer and several other tools to run for free around noon and still put some energy into the grid when the batteries are charged which bring us through the night. You start thinking of WHEN actually using the things and when better not. I just love it. Next up is drilling a fountain and watering the garden with this water (we already collect rain water in a 11.000 liters ground tank to use for toilets and the garden, but it dries out on hot summers causing the reserve system to use fresh water). Be it just for not paying the rising prices for electricity and water...
 
If the tech works and the money works out too , by all means let's do it. (So no subsidising which always farks up good ideas in favour of bad ideas. There's always a leech living off public funds.)

Focussing on solutions: not so long ago I had a similar conversation with a friend who like me is into numerical analysis. We were in a restaurant over the highway, viewing a large fuel station. It was an average day of the week around lunchtime. So let's do some guerilla physics.....
We counted the number of cars entering and leaving (the same I'd hope) for 5 minutes. Each car getting in about 40 litres of fuel, be it petrol or diesel. You then have the total amount of energy transferred per time unit through this one station.

Better build a electricity plant very nearby, and use very thick copper cables. Power chargers are nice pieces of gear, but they need to be fed.
It's not as easy as it seems to make work on the scale our society consumes power and the sort of timescale we are willing to accept e.g. for recharging.
But as always: we humans are a pretty resilient and resourceful sort of bacteria, we'll find solutions sooner or later. Induction charging, fuel cells, yet more efficient batteries. It will come.

Just don't leave it to politicians or journalists. Our world is too important for that.

Tom
 
read up on the life's work of Nickolai Tesla, an Americanised Austrian who was successfully transmitting electricity without the use of wires, and had the ideas (proven ones) for free electricity for everyone, he died aged 87 in 1943. Living that long is on its own, in that era, impressive.

Look also at the history of electricity powerd cars, of around 1910/1920, the range available then was much the same as the range available now!
progress? my arse!
Tesla was shut down (he died a frustrated penniless man whose funding ended, because it threatened others, and living in hotels, the bills for which were very often unpaid) because zillions was being made from the distribution that we knew then and still use now.
CLEM
 
Perfect!

We produce around 68% of the electricity we need ourselves.
In 2020 we produced 3,070.84 kWh which saves about 2,2 to CO²/year. We feed what we don't need into the local power grid.
The investment paid for itself after just 7 years - and we have a good feeling.

By the way - we also get warm water (bathroom, heating, washing machine and dishwasher) through solar energy.
Here the amortization is closer to 10 years but you have the good feeling from the first day.

Thomas aus LAU
Thomas,
I assume you are aware how the power grid works? During peak times industry and large cities requires power on demand.
Until now power plants, be they nuclear or fossil, provide the base load.
All that solar power and wind power electricity needs to be stored in a way to cover the demand when required.
The current situation in Germany is far from meeting the requirements.
May be resolved in the near future, but it's not the case now!
 
Look also at the history of electricity powerd cars, of around 1910/1920, the range available then was much the same as the range available now!
progress? my arse!

CLEM
Not sure which data source you are referring to, but as far as I know, the range of that cars was VERY limited due to battery capacity of that time to less than 20km (first cars) up to even 175km (very late ones. Top-Speed was ranging from 20km/h to 80km/h for the late ones. Todays cars make more than 500 km with one charging and offer up to 240km/h top speed (not at the same time, but that wasn't also the case for the old ones naturally) - really no progress CLEM? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle#Select_historical_production_vehicles

If the tech works and the money works out too , by all means let's do it. (So no subsidising which always farks up good ideas in favour of bad ideas. There's always a leech living off public funds.)

Focussing on solutions: not so long ago I had a similar conversation with a friend who like me is into numerical analysis. We were in a restaurant over the highway, viewing a large fuel station. It was an average day of the week around lunchtime. So let's do some guerilla physics.....
We counted the number of cars entering and leaving (the same I'd hope) for 5 minutes. Each car getting in about 40 litres of fuel, be it petrol or diesel. You then have the total amount of energy transferred per time unit through this one station.

Better build a electricity plant very nearby, and use very thick copper cables. Power chargers are nice pieces of gear, but they need to be fed.
It's not as easy as it seems to make work on the scale our society consumes power and the sort of timescale we are willing to accept e.g. for recharging.
But as always: we humans are a pretty resilient and resourceful sort of bacteria, we'll find solutions sooner or later. Induction charging, fuel cells, yet more efficient batteries. It will come.

Just don't leave it to politicians or journalists. Our world is too important for that.

Tom
Hi Tom,

how many of your friends or of those that have fueld their car up have a petrol station at home? None I assume... How many can officially GET a fuel station at home? None... How many can have a charging point at home? All of them, the infrastructur is already there (all it takes is 380V - which every household in Germany has, as that is what your stove in your kitchen f.e. is connected to...). Even if they are not having an own home, their landlord is responsible to make sure they can have a charging station for their car. In Germany, even the Aldi branches have now solar roofs and offer free charging on their parking spot. Same is in California if you go to a large mall, there are around 10 - 20 super charger from Tesla. How many malls have you seen having a fuel-up service while you are shopping?

Think different ;-)

It is a classic mistake to think in the barriers of existing solutions.
 
Hi Tom,

how many of your friends or of those that have fueld their car up have a petrol station at home? None I assume... How many can officially GET a fuel station at home? None... How many can have a charging point at home? All of them, the infrastructur is already there (all it takes is 380V - which every household in Germany has, as that is what your stove in your kitchen f.e. is connected to...). Even if they are not having an own home, their landlord is responsible to make sure they can have a charging station for their car. In Germany, even the Aldi branches have now solar roofs and offer free charging on their parking spot. Same is in California if you go to a large mall, there are around 10 - 20 super charger from Tesla. How many malls have you seen having a fuel-up service while you are shopping?

Think different ;-)

It is a classic mistake to think in the barriers of existing solutions.
Hi Lothar,
Yes, agreed, many or most cars could be charged overnight and at home, given that every parking space has a charging point. Something we need to set up, and we can do that. Same goes for 380V 3-phase which is certainly not available in the majority of houses built before let's say around '95. And that is a lot of houses my friend!
Mind you that parking space is not the same as household; especially not in urban areas where concentration of people is high and space low. But that can all be solved, given some time and at a cost. I'm sure we will find ways.

I live close to a major train station and there are some public charging points in my street because some of the neighbours got a plugin hybrid with the charger thrown in 'for free' under a stimulation law (100% subsidised) some years ago. No private parking for 90% of the houses here, you're glad to be able to park within 100m of your house. What happens? During work hours sme people park their (whatever brand) large company car, hook up the charging cable, take the train to the airport and go on holidays. So the neighbours have those cars removed, usually right the next day. Happens every week.
Anyway, as the subsidies and tax advantages are lowered step by step so do the numbers of hybrids and e-cars sold. Most of them are exported to countries like Norway where those advantages still exist. Hardly any of them enter the second hand market, hardly any are driven by private owners. So does society really want these vehicles? If yes, put your money where your mouth is. Seems like you are with your house, but the general public does not.

As for fuelling up while going to a mall: very common in places like Belgium, France, Spain and now seen more and more here too.
Not for free indeed, but same goes for the battery charging. No free lunch, somehow you're paying, or at least someone is.

Not to say I'm against all progress or development (which is not the same), my next car will most likely be hybrid and the one after that full electric. But I will consider that last one a utensil, to transport me from A to B. Not a machine I like or enjoy. I'll have my petrol fuelled toys for that.

I really love to see people (read: society) finding many possible solutions and then selecting the one that fits best. It's an evolutionary form of progress that I consider both natural and democratic in its purest form. Not all those ideas may be to my taste, I likely have strong opinions on what solutions are better or preferable, but in the end may the best one win. And it will.

My little anecdote about the cars entering the fuel station was meant as an illustration of the brute numbers involved, no 2 or 3 superchargers will deliver that. And as you yourself said: we have gas stations everywhere. There are reasons for that. Let's find out so we can come up with real alternatives that actually answer society's needs.
As a former colleague used to ask during product development reviews: to what problem is this a solution?

gr
Tom
 
have you ridden one (for more than just around the block)? Think of it in the following application:
-my town is quite hilly. There is almost no place that you can reach to that does not include at least one bigger road going steeply upwards. Years ago, I had to commute to my office daily, which was 18km away. I tried this with my normal bike and reached the office below 1 hour, completely sweated through to the underwear. No chance to get a shower in the office. I tried the same distance with the e-bike. I was still feeling it took me afford to reach the office, but I was not completely sweated. Also, it saved me another 10 minutes on this distance.

-before I had the e-bike, I had hundreds of excuses not to take the bike. I ride WAY more on the bike since I have the e-bike.

-people with knee-problems, people that are untrained, older people (just like me... ;-) )benefit from the help of this e-motor a lot.

-I can now even keep up with friends that are very trained and we can have a tour of 30 - 40 kilometers without an issue.

Before you ask: my bike get's recharged by the solar system on the roof of my house... ;-)
I was referring to electric motorcycle but thought that was an oxymoron so just put electric bike. The MemSahib rides a Bosch Ebicycle and it is the future of bicycles without a doubt, I have ridden it and it’s superb, cheating, but superb.
I have been reading with great interest about the new Triumph Electric bikes and I am sure they will perform well and on paper be just like a “ motorcycle” - but not for me. Ever since I was a child my Dad would wind down the window on the family car for me to hear a motorcycle overtake, I loved the smell of four star filling up, I can remember the colour and smell of Duckhams Q - even the taste! I first went to the Earls Court show in ‘79 aged 11 and still have the Triumph Bonneville posters that I got from the Meriden stand, sitting on a Bonneville pretending to kick start it,dreaming.
I spent my whole life in the motorcycle industry, Racing , building , Two stroke, four stroke, I have been factory trained by Honda, Kawasaki, BMW And my childhood dream Triumph- I’ve even given factory tours of the Jacknall road factory.
So the thought of riding some clinical ,two wheeled ,plastic thing that smells of static and has all the character of an oversized cordless drill fills me with absolute dread. I am a dinosaur and to be honest I don’t give a flying fuck if my bike is bad for the planet, I’m going to ride until I can’t.
 
Hi Tom, just recognized you are in the Netherlands, not in Germany (which I was assuming, as Leiden is also a town in Germany...), so I understand things might be different. In Germany, every house has 380 V (except maybe if the electrics haven't been touched the past 40-50 years). My parents house was built 1962, it has 380 Volt already (3 phases, each 220Volt). But even with 220 volts, you can charge a EV, it just takes WAAAYYY longer.

A hybrid car is no solution for me to be honest. Tests show that in 95% of all cases, they run on gas instead of electricity, as they do not get charged enough during their average usage of 20 - 30 kilometers at 30-40km/h. A plug-in hybrid (difference: you can charge these from external sources) could be charged, but people are to lazy to do it actually. So - why any hybrid car get the same funding from the government in Germany is beyond me, as they do absolutely nothing for the environment but may still have an "E" on the number plate, which gives them the same advantages as full EV's.


Electric cars (motorbikes) in the future! I can hardly wait. Touring range is always going to be an issue.
Really?

If you haven't done so, testdrive a EV car and see how practical it is or not. We have some Tesla S in germany that did 300.000km in 4 years. Is range really an issue then? This one has covered more than 450.000km in 7 years = 64.400km/year. The seller is the second owner:

Tesla with 451.000km

but it depends for sure on where you live and how good the infrastructure is...
 
I was referring to electric motorcycle but thought that was an oxymoron so just put electric bike. The MemSahib rides a Bosch Ebicycle and it is the future of bicycles without a doubt, I have ridden it and it’s superb, cheating, but superb.
I have been reading with great interest about the new Triumph Electric bikes and I am sure they will perform well and on paper be just like a “ motorcycle” - but not for me. Ever since I was a child my Dad would wind down the window on the family car for me to hear a motorcycle overtake, I loved the smell of four star filling up, I can remember the colour and smell of Duckhams Q - even the taste! I first went to the Earls Court show in ‘79 aged 11 and still have the Triumph Bonneville posters that I got from the Meriden stand, sitting on a Bonneville pretending to kick start it,dreaming.
I spent my whole life in the motorcycle industry, Racing , building , Two stroke, four stroke, I have been factory trained by Honda, Kawasaki, BMW And my childhood dream Triumph- I’ve even given factory tours of the Jacknall road factory.
So the thought of riding some clinical ,two wheeled ,plastic thing that smells of static and has all the character of an oversized cordless drill fills me with absolute dread. I am a dinosaur and to be honest I don’t give a flying fuck if my bike is bad for the planet, I’m going to ride until I can’t.
I agree the new world sounds soulless and sanitised. I already miss so much even before the green revolution fully takes hold. Remember lying in bed on a cold morning listening to your neighbour trying to start his old Escort . The battery sounding weaker and weaker as it nearly catches but not quite. "Leave it a couple of minutes mate" but no he keeps cranking when all hope is lost. Also that smell of burnt oil when following behind an old Maxi. "He's on borrowed time" but you see it six months later still trailing the tell tale bouquet.
The Esso sign means happy motoring. "Put a tiger in your tank !"
 
I wouldn`t mind a Zero or Harley Livewire ( if I had a spare£28k or whatever it is they cost).Trouble is I don`t have a powered garage or driveway so would have to rely on public charging points,and while there are more of them around half of them seem to be located in someone`s back yard or at the end of a lane between some houses and when you find them you will find one is already in use (40 min.wait) and the other isn`t working.
Ok maybe a slight exaggeration but what is needed is a network of charge points similar to the petrol station network,standardised charging points compatible with whichever vehicle your`e using and a standard method of payment so that charging is as straightforward as filling with petrol.
Until that basic infastructure is in place and range/recharge times improve and the vehicles become affordable ,it ain`t gonna fly.
Still not that keen on them even if above points addressed but wouldn`t mind a go on a Zero,once you get rolling acceleration in the 40-90 mph range is blistering apparently.
 
My little anecdote about the cars entering the fuel station was meant as an illustration of the brute numbers involved, no 2 or 3 superchargers will deliver that. And as you yourself said: we have gas stations everywhere. There are reasons for that. Let's find out so we can come up with real alternatives that actually answer society's needs.

The folk I know who have gone full electric car all leave the house each day with a full battery, which means they have around 220 miles before needing to think of recharge, and so a lot will rarely use public charging.
 
Just viewed the Triumph TE-1 video and three thoughts occur to me:
(1) The Triumph tie-up with Bajaj to market lightweight Indian built lightweight Triumphs was thought to include a Triumph badged electric Bajaj-not the case now it seems.
(2) The TE-1 will be a British built Triumph,a bit of a novelty,unless they get Thailand (or Bajaj) to make it.
(3) Had a Triumph 1200 Bonneville Bobber that flashed all its warning lights at me one afternoon.I stopped,switched off (big mistake) as starter circuit was dead and would not restart.Eventually sorted with replacement ABS pump/modulator which is part hydraulic /part electric. It was the electrical part that failed.Now Triumph are going to make a bike which is 100% electrical.We`ll see how it goes.....
 
The folk I know who have gone full electric car all leave the house each day with a full battery, which means they have around 220 miles before needing to think of recharge, and so a lot will rarely use public charging.
exactly. 90% or more of all travel is within less than 50 kilometers. Range matters? Rarely it does...

40 years ago, Airbags were something for people that did not trust the robustness of their car. 60 years ago, there was a big discussion about having to ware a seat belt or not and women even feard to destroy their boobs when putting the seat belt on etc. etc. etc. . Almost the same with ABS or any other new technology.

Sure thing, driving a classic car without all that is something really special and "pure", but would you want that anymore for your daily ride?

The instantly available power of an EV is something really special. Yes, there are some shortcomings in terms of charging stations (every gas station though should be able to build up 1-2 chargers, which would improve that). For people living in city, almost every street lamp can be modified to offer a charging port. Maybe not with 22kw/h or more like the super chargers, but hey - if you charge the car over night, you have 10 - 12 hours to charge - that's mostly enough even if it is just 220Volts.

I think we will see a massive change to EV's the next years. Friend of mine is working at an Opel dealer in our home town. more than 50% of the sold cars are EV's
 
The folk I know who have gone full electric car all leave the house each day with a full battery, which means they have around 220 miles before needing to think of recharge, and so a lot will rarely use public charging.
The folks I know who don't have a private garage and/or driveway find that a major obstacle in going electric.
Hence the 'public charging point in your street for free' program, which unfortunately but foreseeable turned into 'free private parking and charging for your Prius/Tesla/Outlander' and then ended quickly.
Charging facilities in (almost) every public parking space without cables is the way to go. It will take some time and investment.

Tom
 
exactly. 90% or more of all travel is within less than 50 kilometers. Range matters? Rarely it does...

40 years ago, Airbags were something for people that did not trust the robustness of their car. 60 years ago, there was a big discussion about having to ware a seat belt or not and women even feard to destroy their boobs when putting the seat belt on etc. etc. etc. . Almost the same with ABS or any other new technology.

Sure thing, driving a classic car without all that is something really special and "pure", but would you want that anymore for your daily ride?

The instantly available power of an EV is something really special. Yes, there are some shortcomings in terms of charging stations (every gas station though should be able to build up 1-2 chargers, which would improve that). For people living in city, almost every street lamp can be modified to offer a charging port. Maybe not with 22kw/h or more like the super chargers, but hey - if you charge the car over night, you have 10 - 12 hours to charge - that's mostly enough even if it is just 220Volts.

I think we will see a massive change to EV's the next years. Friend of mine is working at an Opel dealer in our home town. more than 50% of the sold cars are EV's
Sure, and people should be able to cover 90% of their needs on a medium powered motorcycle, e-bike, scooter.
And if you want to sit warm and dry: a Carver, Messerschmidt, Goggomobil. A friggin Smart.

In practice people buy a 5 door car for those moments they really have all family members on board, and make it a station car with a tow hook because we go on holidays with a caravan once a year... Look outside, there is wisdom in the choices of the masses. Or at least the reflection of public opinion. We all vote with our feet.

Lothar, your logic is clear, but many decisions are not just based on reason. Mine neither.

E.G.1: Take e-cars; yes there is a very sudden way of picking up speed (hooray...), but in practice: are you doing that every day, all the time? (if you would, you'd be wasting a lot energy because accelerating hard (a) in a already heavy vehicle (m) obeys to Newton's law F=m*a .... ;) )
I've driven them and the novelty wears off soon. Your reasoning that says '90% of people only need 200km range 90% of the time' goes for acceleration too. It still doesn't sell me an e-car. No joy, no passion, no emotion.

E.G.2: For medical reasons I had to give up manual shifting in my daily driver some years ago. It works well, smooth and usually in the right gear. I can put it in sports mode (better) and I can select gears manually. Great piece of tech. However it bores me to death and there is no joy in playing it. No Freude am Fahren. It is a transport utensil.
I hate driving an autobox. I miss working the gears, clutch and gas in the car just as most of us here do on the bike. Thank God for my last century sports cars and bike.

I'm a petrol head. Emotion.
Tom
 
That’s fine for you eu / brexit chaps, sometimes we might do a 250k round trip to work each day, I’m sure that they will get better but working for 6years building new servos told me that fossil fuels will still be here when I die. They’re still investing big money here in fossil fuel refillers, Australia will probably be one of the places in the first world with the real deal fuel for Laverdas
 
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