Too many gadgets in new vehicles?

[Andy]

I honestly think every driver should have to prove they can change a wheel, top up fluids, tyre pressures and cars should be made so you can change a bulb without tools. I would also reintroduce words like Shooting Brake & double de- clutch, dress code driving jacket ( with web backed gloves and a cap if deemed appropriate) anti static rubber dangly arrows and five star petrol. The AA should reintroduce saluting and sidecars…perhaps then they would arrive in 45 minutes instead of later this week or subbing it out to some cowboy recovery outfit in Wales that “ didn’t realise it was a bike, boyo”

I was right with you until you started getting silly, imitating a welsh accent

 

[MotoJouni]

...
Again: these are ASSISTANCE Systems, they do not replace the driver, they shall help the driver to focus on the traffic. If you can't live with them, go for an old car pre- 90's, maybe even pre 80's.
...

This one is easy, that is exactly what I have always done. I have a couple of old rear wheel drive cars, I have never had anything else. All have disc brakes at front and drums at back and a rigid rear axle. All of them have carburettors and some have contact point breakers. No ABS.

With many of those gadgets, the driver should always know how they actually work to catch the situations when they don't. Secondly the driver should be still able to drive a car without them. Thirdly many of the gadgets have very serious problems working on Finnish winter.

I find it strange that nowadays I need to often explain people how I drive my cars. When I'm sitting at the drivers seat the ergonomics are correct personally for me. I don't know what has happened for the ergonomics standards, but I guess some old western ergonomics standards have been replaced with some new global standards that are just wrong for me. Perhaps the new standards are more correct for global customers in average.
Then, the cars are box shaped, I can see all of the corners from the drivers position without any radars or cameras.
Then, when I drive, I can keep my sight 100% of the time on the traffic. I don't need to look down to push a touch screen, I can find all of the knobs with my fingers. Then I have a feel what happens between tyres and surface on my seat, more or less depending of a car model also on the brake pedal and steering wheel.
If I need to do emergency breaking, for example, when driving 80 km/h on asphalt, I kick the brake pedal down, the front wheels stop and start to slide, I calmly release the pressure until the steering comes back, that's my ABS. On slippery surfaces like snow and ice on winter, if the back end starts to slide sideways, I almost release the throttle pedal and turn the steering wheel around halfway front wheels pointing forwards, the grip comes back very quickly. I can also double kick the clutch to get a small gear in, if needed when going fast. Almost 100% of everything in the cars can be disassembled and reassembled almost forever without breaking any parts, there are almost zero components in the cars that can be installed just once, in addition to the head gasket.

I definitely don't understand if the feel is removed from the seat, pedals and steering wheel, how the driver could know where the limits of grip are going? A badly designed electric power steering seems to be just one way to do that. Well, I can see how the new cars are often driven, the drivers had no clue about the grip or the kinetic energy.

-Jouni

 

[iis_iis]

So, all old blokes here not happy with modern folk vehicles, modern folk not aware of what old cars/bikes drive like...why would they, ( we of the never never 20th century ) enjoy the old bangers with the old skills innate.

High tech is a "problem" that fixes itself, when it stops you cannot rectify yourself, consult high tech "company" service centre, take out smart phone ( more like outsmart phone ) and have the never seen, money fly from one computer to the next... tech is tech in oh so many forms you would overlook when motoring along with Bicentennial Man at the controls, or just to the left or right of the driving seat.

As testament, Sunday just gone, gal neighbor asked me to check the oil in her Mazda CX-5 2012, barely got home with the "lost/losing power" element coming off a mountain road ( Canberra to Batemans Bay ). Indicates to me oil can lamp ( yes yes i know LED, its a lamp by any other name, should be so bright ), consult the better than 3/4" thick owners "quick" reference manual, in 10 languages or better. Oil looked ok, save for being filthy black, i was not at first, cognisant looking at a diesel.... owners description of observed position in the new years fireworks type display of vehicle parameters.

Surmised oil lamp not in the observed position as she drove the failing engine down the hills, check coolant, expansion tank correct, radiator cap removed , minus three to four liters missing.... 2.2L two stage turbo diesel, hook up OBD and ipad ( bit of tech that needs interpretation and can be useful ) EGR error the only current fault code. No overheating, no limp home initiation codes.... the problems with these Mazda diesel motors is legend, and available as high tech data online, such like tech is good.... the vehicle is a write off, $5K as a running vehicle and $300 to the wreckers on a bright day or $50 the more usual "take it away". I toyed with repairing the motor, what for, its 14 years old... basic engineering as high tech has merit, as the age related faults from too clever engineering emerge, hard to see a useful vehicle turned to scrap... then thats the old tech inside of me, automated or no. j

 

[motoddrob]

My gripe is with push button 4wd instead of the old lever coming out of the gear box. The 4wd on my old ute didn't work more than it did.
A computer under the seat was always a problem and if not it was the actuators either on the transfer case or the front diff lock.
What the fuck was wrong with a lever that came out directly from the gear box?. Fuck technology!!!
Hopefully my 2003 100 series Land Cruiser will be my last car.

 

[psg]

'a cap if deemed appropriate'
A John Bolster approved Deer Stalker of course

 

[Dellortoman]

As an engineer, I have no problem with advancements in technology. I use smart gadgets and I'm thankful for the convenience they provide. I have no problem with improving vehicle technology either, as long as those advances solve problems that need to be solved, like better handling and braking, better tyres. But I can't support smart systems that allow or encourage incompetent drivers to get behind the wheel of a car.

Drivers coming into the system now don't need to know how to brake or steer properly because ABS and lane assist relieves them of that responsibility. What happens to them if those systems stop working? And sometimes they do stop working.

I have an old mate in UK who's late model EU compliant Vauxhall suffered an alarming failure in its steering control. I don't know why, maybe it was a malfunction in the lane assist system, but the car suddenly decided it needed to turn left for no reason. He had to fight it to keep it relatively straight until he found a spot to pull over. Fortunately it was on a minor road with little traffic, but it still gave him a fright.

My last job before retiring was as an asset manager for an organisation that provided assisted living for people with disabilities. That included managing their vehicle fleet. The biggest time consuming headache with the vehicles in the fleet (other than idiot drivers crashing them) was electronic faults. I'd get on average one vehicle a week (from a fleet of about 30 vehicles) that had some kind of failure in its electronic system. Things like going into limp mode because something went wrong with the engine management system, or a window that refused to wind up, a touch screen that would no longer respond, or something continuously beeping for no apparent reason.

Experiences such as those I had to deal with during my tenure as a fleet manager taught me to avoid cars with over-complicated electronic systems.

A failure of a vehicle to perform as intended is not covered by your vehicle insurance (unless the failure was caused by a crash). Once a vehicle is out of warranty, you're on your own if it goes tits up for no apparent reason. Sometimes such failures can be so costly as to render the vehicle a write off, as John recounted with his Mazda story above. I don't want to expose myself to that risk, and as a retiree, I don't have the financial resources to buy a new car every few years so I always have warranty cover. I don't want a new car anyway because of all the stupid driver aids that end up being driver distractions. I'll stick with my 1995 Mitsubishi thank you.

 

[Laverdalothar]

I think you’ll find that EV mandates will die over time and under the force of democracy a lot of the authoritarian vehicular wet dreams of today will be pushed aside. Not all of them, but many.

I make my living designing complex schemes to electrify vehicles, it’s a wave that can be ridden at the moment to make money. I don’t believe it is the whole future.

with growing mankind and limited resources, it is the only way to go really. you need 5 times the energy for 1 kilometer of fossil mobility than what you need for electric mobility. Facts matter...

 

[The Sock]

You need 5 times the energy for 1 kilometer of fossil mobility than you need for electric mobility. Facts matter...

How much more vehicle weight is required for electric mobility for an equivalent usable range in an equivalent time frame.
How does that mass affect road surface wear and add to the forces involved in collisions?
Where does the electrical energy come from and what are the losses involved in getting it into the vehicle?
The efficiencies for a 10 km round trip commuter in Dubai don't equate with a 400 km trip in Norway, in winter.

 

[Schurminater]

 

[Laverdalothar]

How much more vehicle weight is required for electric mobility for an equivalent usable range in an equivalent time frame.
How does that mass affect road surface wear and add to the forces involved in collisions?
Where does the electrical energy come from and what are the losses involved in getting it into the vehicle?
The efficiencies for a 10 km round trip commuter in Dubai don't equate with a 400 km trip in Norway, in winter.

What are the losses and polution involved, drilling for oil off-shore. how many tonns of oil have been pured into the sea on tanker accidents and caused massive damage to the environment? How many deathes has lead caused in gas? How much polution do brakes produce on a combustion-type vehicle compared to a BEV that has recuperation? How much wasted oil do you need for a combustion engine or other service parts during a life-span of 250.000 km?

A BEV is better in any economic, environmental or other analysis. It accelerates quicker, needs less energy, has more space, better weight distribution etc. etc. etc.

Depending on what power you use (and I use solar power from my roof in 75% of the cases every year, rest is a mix of 60% Solar or Wind energy in Germany). Brakes last 80.000 - 120.000km easily (on my Audi, which btw. also weighted 2 tons... and had less range with one tank than my BEV...), I had to exchange them every 30.000km... latest.... Not to talk about oil changes with filters etc.

It is so funny that no matter where in the world you live, the "arguments" are all the same anywhere - and 98% of the people that are not for a BEV, have never driven one, at least not for more than an hour maybe. And those that have owned one, would never turn back. Doesn't that tell something?

To all the "oldtimers" here: When Apple integrated phone capabilities into an iPod to create the iPhone, Nokia, the then marketleader with around 40%, laughed their ass off... "who needs this bullshit? they will never succeed"

5 years later, they were almost dead and sold their telephone business to Microsoft. Who owns a Microsoft phone today?

Smartphones have a market-share of over 90%. BEV's are the smartphones of car mobility. You might not like it, but you are all using Smartphones today, right? Still you might have loved your Nokia 6310i or your flip-up foldable phones for a while... I still have mine, but would never turn back...

 

[Alzero]

Vietnam is cracking down on foreigners who do not have the correct International Drivers Permit so I’m returning my Honda ADV 160 and getting a full size VinFast Feliz e-scooter. The interesting thing is the cost per 100 kms: the Honda is 6.5 times more expensive.

They both have similar ranges at 250 kms, but a full charge of both batteries costs 19k vnd (€.63) at 4k a kWh and filling up the Honda’s tank is 218k vnd (€7.21) at 27k (€.89) a liter. The e-scooter also has a battery swap option with stations all over town. Two full batteries there is 18k vnd (€.60) so a tiny bit cheaper. But to lease two batteries is 300k vnd (€9.92) a month so I didn’t go that route.

The Honda is significantly faster at over 120 kph vs 90 kph, but since I live in the city, I’ve rarely been over 50 kph! Also, I am getting the Lite version that needs no license, but is software restricted to 50 kph. I did get two removable batteries so I can bring them into my apartment to charge them.

BTW I am renting both of these at a yearly rate, the Honda was 4M vnd (€132.26) a month and the VinFast is 2.5M (€82.66) a month. Foreigners on a tourist visa cannot own motorcycles or cars.

 

[pf1]

Mobile phones are destroying society Lothar. The streets are full of zombies obsessed with them. I don't call that progress.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Mobile phones are destroying society Lothar. The streets are full of zombies obsessed with them. I don't call that progress.

Still, I bet you have one and it is a smartphone, right?

I live in a country where everything that is not hands-free phoning is forbidden while you drive. They even invented new traffic / speed cameras that can identify if you are holding a phone and take a picture, which causes quite high fines... Not saying no-one is on the phone anymore, but it has dramatically declined ever since this law was implemented.

BTW: BEV's are 50 - 60 times less likely to burn than a traditional car. Who would have guessed that?

 

[OWAGUY]

An interesting new thread to read especially while my trusty 26 year old virtually tech free diesel Merc was put through its MOT and passed with only insignifcant advisories for UV fading / cracks in both registration plates .

I absolutely agree with those of you who think touch screen infotainment screens are dangerous. I think the one in my wife’s car is an accident waiting to happen.

However, my current TOP HATE that I’m powerless to decide whether or not to use is oncoming vehicles with automatic headlight dipping systems . The systems installed in some of the latest Chinese large SUV’s seem to be particularly slow to respond to the extent that I need to give them a main beam flash before they dip. Whoever thought that a system that results in loss of night vision for approaching vehicles was a good idea should attend a few coroners court hearings related to RTA’s resulting from their ill judged introduction.

Whilst talking about modern vehicle lights the fashion for tiny LED direction indicator lenses particularly on EV’s is also strange / annoying / dangerous given that in direct sunlight they are all but invisible! Perhaps it is because so many drivers now seem to regard the use of indicators as being a purely optional activity whilst they look at their infotainment screens.

 

[Paul Marx]

Society has collapsed because the influence of the church has diminished.
Electric vehicles are the work of the devil.
Or the Chinese who have replaced the devil in unbelievers.

Paul

 

[The Sock]

Still, I bet you have one and it is a smartphone, right?

I do.
I also have a selection of fifteen different Single Malts, on my shelf, doesn't mean I'm permanently pixilated.
As pf1 points out above, the problem is with those obsessed by the technology.
Bad enough in a pedestrian but positively lethal in someone whose focus should be on driving.

 

[Laverdalothar]

I do.
I also have a selection of fifteen different Single Malts, on my shelf, doesn't mean I'm permanently pixilated.
As pf1 points out above, the problem is with those obsessed by the technology.
Bad enough in a pedestrian but positively lethal in someone whose focus should be on driving.

And I am with you on that (not the Whiskey - the other thing!). Any time I see folks in the Tesla Forum moaning about not having Apple Car Play as they want to do Video-Conferences while driving, i go absoultely nuts and tell them to fuck off!

I am not glorifying all possible usecases of a modern vehicle, but if you think a touch-screen is dangerous, what do you think about his...:



How long does this take to actually use it properly without looking at the switches?!

In most modern cars, many commands are voice-controled. no need to use touchscreen or buttons...

 

[pf1]

I have very little interest in phones Lothar, especially the smart bit. They have replaced cameras to some extent which is useful and I use Whatsapp for free international calls but otherwise I find them an intrusive nuisance.

 

[Perry]

Society has collapsed because the influence of the church has diminished.
Electric vehicles are the work of the devil.
Or the Chinese who have replaced the devil in unbelievers.

Paul

' China is a sleeping giant, let him sleep, for if he wakes, he will shake the world'
One of your lot said that I think.

 

[Laverdalothar]

My point is not if you use all it's capabilities. My point is, that BEV's will replace combustion chamber driven cars just like smartphones have replaced traditional mobile phones. It is simply getting used to it, nothing else.