Too many gadgets in new vehicles?

Laverdalothar said:
with growing mankind and limited resources, it is the only way to go really. you need 5 times the energy for 1 kilometer of fossil mobility than what you need for electric mobility. Facts matter...
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And when I can no longer afford a gallon a gasoline, of which BTW most of the cost in Europe is tax and not cost of production, that theory will matter to me. As it is, in reality, I have no problem with supply of gasoline, or its cost, and don’t expect to have a problem for a very long time. So I buy what works better, particularly as I mostly buy it where government is not attempting to distort the real world market to the same degree as where you live. Facts matter, not unsubstantiated theories.

The main benefit of EVs right now in the world energy market is that they allow China to power their cars with coal, which is their predominant source of electrical energy, supplying about 50% of total Chinese electrical energy production including that which powers their EVs.
 
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Laverdalothar said:
And I am with you on that (not the Whiskey - the other thing!). Any time I see folks in the Tesla Forum moaning about not having Apple Car Play as they want to do Video-Conferences while driving, i go absoultely nuts and tell them to fuck off!

I am not glorifying all possible usecases of a modern vehicle, but if you think a touch-screen is dangerous, what do you think about his...:

View attachment 106503

How long does this take to actually use it properly without looking at the switches?!

In most modern cars, many commands are voice-controled. no need to use touchscreen or buttons...
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Citroën GS. I had two. Lovely cars. Air cooled flat four programmed to auto destruct at 100 000 km.
Powered the BFG.
Paul
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Perry said:
' China is a sleeping giant, let him sleep, for if he wakes, he will shake the world'
One of your lot said that I think.
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That was Alain Pierrefitte. Not particularly one of my lot.

China has been awake a long time.
They make great electric cars and are in some environnemental domains a lot more advanced than the West.
We've had "made in Hong Kong"
"Made in Japan"
Now "Made in China".

South Korea has gone unnoticed.

Without all these people, we couldn't treat anything more serious than a common cold.
All our respirators are electric as are our dialysis machines not to mention our biology labs.

All the machines have lithium ion batteries and touch screens.

Paul
 
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Silvaire said:
The main benefit of EVs right now in the world energy market is that they allow China to power their cars with coal, which is their predominant source of electrical energy, supplying about 50% of total Chinese electrical energy production including that which powers their EVs.
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China - other than the rest of the "educated" world... - has understood that the future is Wind, Solar and water energy. They are BY FAR!!! the world's fastest growing Solar power plant base, same for Wind energy. However, their energy "hunger" is very big and their 15 year plans also have coal, hydrogen and even nuclear plants in them. They changed that plan though in the past 3 years to reduce the number of coal plants and build more solar and Wind energy farms.

If the rest of the world would do an equal attempt to get rid of fossil power plants than china, we would all be much better off...
 
And despite that China produces half their electrical energy with coal. And it will continue. That number in the US is about 17% for comparison, having dropped from about 50% as it was in the mid-2000s, at which point China was in the mid-60s.

What actually needs to happen in the world energy market is for countries with energy security problems to lower their population to align with their resources. Europe is the greatest problem here, but is addicted to the tax revenue that comes from large number of taxpayers. The people themselves see reality and have lowered their birth rate, which is better in principle than the endless exporting of people that was the European approach to resource problems in the past. However government has not shown much willingness to have their revenue stream cut off.
 
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Paul Marx said:
That was Alain Pierrefitte. Not particularly one of my lot.

China has been awake a long time.
They make great electric cars and are in some environnemental domains a lot more advanced than the West.
We've had "made in Hong Kong"
"Made in Japan"
Now "Made in China".

South Korea has gone unnoticed.

Without all these people, we couldn't treat anything more serious than a common cold.
All our respirators are electric as are our dialysis machines not to mention our biology labs.

All the machines have lithium ion batteries and touch screens.

Paul
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Oh , I had it down as a quote from Napoleon. Just looked it up and I see there is some dispute as to the original source .
 
I’m enjoying this thread it’s as amusing as some oil threads.



Then it goes off to electric vs ICE. Love it.



Present electric cars are a sop to the green lobby and a money injection to the friends of government.
Why people don’t see this is beyond me.
I am aware people do not want to see things that scare them.
When was mining, drilling for a commodity ever going to be ‘sustainable’?

We are on this forum as we have a common interest in old out of date motorcycles.
In their day they were full of modern technology.

Why wouldn’t you want gadgets in your car or on your motorcycle that make them more comfortable to drive?

I do not own a car but get to drive plenty of hire cars, some with good features some with bad.



I’ve benefitted from ABS, proximity sensors and air conditioning. Some like lane control I find irritating. At least one car I hired, with this feature picked up on every white line and bit of road banding. Try driving out of Hamburg without going through roadworks. As a first timer to the pleasures of Hamburg roadworks, having just stepped off a plane and trying to navigate myself in an unfamiliar car to my new posting the lane control was a P. in the A.


Auto dip lights are in my view (Excuse the potential pun/irony) a bloody nonsense. Either drivers get lazy or the system just doesn’t work without blinding folks coming the other way. I have now had to fit my motorcycles with LED lamps in an effort to counter this.

I’m not a fan of touch screens.

In the cars I’ve driven so far they require too much off road vision time.
Older vehicles can become touch familiar in a manner that I don’t see happening with a screen equipped car or motorcycle for that matter.
Having said that, try driving long distance in an 80s/90s Range Rover. Heater/radio/lights etc. controls feel like they are under the dash board.

I love heads up displays, a la BMW. Cruise control and speed alert alarms are great if fitted in such manner as to be intuitive and ‘to hand’.

I would bet most drivers set their cars up and then the other umpteen controls/function/options are quietly forgotten.

I rented a BMW 1200 GS some years ago. All sorts of gadgets and variable functions. All of which were tried and discarded as irrelevant after testing. The bloody thing drank fuel faster than my 1977 BMW R100. It may have burnt it more efficiently but the extra weight required that more of it needed to be burnt. When the weather got bad I just slowed down. When the traffic got thick I did the same. I didn’t use its extra power as it was unnecessary and all I would have achieved was potentially a revoked licence and the burning of yet more fuel.


Having said that when speaking to a fellow rider on a ferry journey and being made aware of the power he had available to him and the experience he had, it was very probably a good thing he could ‘detune’ his motorcycle at the touch of a button.

I use modern tech as it makes driving less tiring allowing me to drive/ride further with less fatigue, therefore in my view safer. I’ve driven bloody miles without seatbelts, air conditioning, lane control, ABS, air bags and crumple zones but I can’t deny that traffic deaths have declined due to these ‘gadgets’.

It’s not the gadgets that I feel are unnecessary it is the entitlement of drivers/riders that worries me.

In the past decades, I’ve obtained driving licenses for cars, trucks (TGV 40 tonne) and motorcycle and incidentally power boats/rescue craft.
It’s the variation in standards and tuition that is a worry.


Home is in Spain. They teach people to drive 270 degrees of a roundabout in the outside lane. As the rules state you must give way to the right so no one wants to be on the inside lane. Indicators are optional extras as is sticking to one marked lane or driving above a minimum speed limit on the motorways.

In India I passed my car license test by driving forward 100 metres and being able to show that I could pull away from stand still and get into 2nd gear without stalling. Reversing the same 100 metres I left the examiner astounded when I completed the manoeuvre without looking behind me, using mirrors alone.

In Chicago, USA, I saw a young lady burst into tears with the pressure of the pre driving test multiple choice question paper. If the pressure of that is too much what will happen if she does actually make it onto the road. There was no one to stop you looking up all the answers in the back of the highway code book whilst doing the paper incidentally, but I guess that was beyond her ability.
The driving test in Chicago, in good weather, was a basic version of the motorcycle test I passed in the early 80s in appalling weather conditions on my 250cc BSA. I think I passed that more out of pity than ability. The motorcycle test taken the same day as the car test taken in Chicago was also pretty farcical and easily passable on my 750cc BSA which I’d shipped out with me for that posting.

In China my truck license test was purely a verbal test. To ensure that I understood the local highway code. Having driven there from Europe they took the view I knew how to drive but may not know their regulations. I think that’s fair.
Did you know it is illegal to drive your truck off a cliff, precipice or ravine in China? The cost of a new truck will be your burden should you survive or be the burden of your remaining family if you don’t. Good to know; that is. The standard of trucks all too often was very poor and obviously many of the drivers were in journey work so drove at breakneck speed all the time.



Pakistan I think most of the drivers were stoned and in India their fate was in the hands of their gods so their driving ability had little to do with the success of and one journey.

Australian truck license again a multiple choice question paper, passed, but I was excused the driving bit as the policeman had already tested a number of people that day and he was tired of going around the block and he miss read my international license and I would never correct a policeman.

My car test was earned, and the same for my family, motorcycle and HGV license too.
Don’t drink and drive, if I lose one I lose the lot.
It appears to me that gaining ones licence does not appear to me to have the same importance/significance. Am I wrong?

I don’t think people get it these days.

Certainly, my nieces appear to have a very different attitude to driving than their parents and myself. When asked my work colleague’s son answered, ‘A blue one.” To the question of what car does your father drive?

Driving in Spain is interesting. Lots of people in holiday mode, driving unfamiliar cars on unfamiliar roads on an unfamiliar side of the car and the road. Probably under the influence of last night’s drugs, booze, lack of sleep and too much sun.

The Netherlands I constantly see levels of entitlement in the form of aggressive driving. Tailgating at a proximity that allows you to count nose hairs of the following driver. I’ve witnessed first-hand, confrontation hither too only seen on American YouTube videos on a Dutch motorway.

Italy, be aware that there is a percentage of drivers who feel they are Formula one capable and wish to demonstrate it. They don’t park so much as ‘Abandon with Style’.

In Britain, many feel that the centre lane on motorways is theirs and that single track roads in the countryside are all one way. Their way.

France. I used to look out for the Citroen 2CV held together with bailer twine but they seem to have disappeared now replaced by pretty little things in sporty cars, daddy bought them.

Germans, terrify me with their motorway antics. When was it ever safe to do 200 kph in the rain? No consideration taken for the weather conditions. Maybe that’s why the crash death rate is so high although the crash numbers are relatively small.

Drivers they are the annoying bit and I’m sure I’m as guilty as the next man.

I try not to be but I am not always 100% on top of my game.

I’ve been lucky.
 
I'm exhausted now Charley. Spanish roundabout practices, now there's a thing I can't get used to but where I am and where I go is reasonably empty. There is no pleasure in being in survival mode all the time when driving or riding either. As for electric cars I'm not remotely interested in them or any gadgets of any type that aren't intuitive and I detest wasting time on anything with too many irrelevant functions. The thing is I like being this way ha ha! Bikes birds and booze is all you need in this life.
 
pf1 said:
I'm exhausted now Charley. Spanish roundabout practices, now there's a thing I can't get used to but where I am and where I go is reasonably empty. There is no pleasure in being in survival mode all the time when driving or riding either. As for electric cars I'm not remotely interested in them or any gadgets of any type that aren't intuitive and I detest wasting time on anything with too many irrelevant functions. The thing is I like being this way ha ha! Bikes birds and booze is all you need in this life.
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My youngest bike is a 1994 Indian Enfield. My van is a 1955 Citroen H Type. I don’t own a car and will never out of choice go electric.
 
Silvaire said:
And despite that China produces half their electrical energy with coal. And it will continue. That number in the US is about 17% for comparison, having dropped from about 50% as it was in the mid-2000s, at which point China was in the mid-60s.

What actually needs to happen in the world energy market is for countries with energy security problems to lower their population to align with their resources. Europe is the greatest problem here, but is addicted to the tax revenue that comes from large number of taxpayers. The people themselves see reality and have lowered their birth rate, which is better in principle than the endless exporting of people that was the European approach to resource problems in the past. However government has not shown much willingness to have their revenue stream cut off.
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Europe has repeatedly tried to reduce its population, and has even reduced the population of the US a couple of times. It doesn't work.
The US with the western worlds most ineffective and expensive health system is putting in a brave effort all by itself now.
Europe hasn't quite managed that because some countries use taxes for the health of their population. Not a good idea obviously.
Paul
 
Europe’s approach to funding their health system by transferring R&D costs to the US health care consumer is hardly something to admire, any more than the same approach to defense. As a European expatriate I am extremely glad to buy my health care in US, as is my German wife. We actually get care as opposed to it being a nice theory, and we are happy to pay for what we actually do get, as well as part of what you get. That’s a lot easier in the US with double the take home pay, or perhaps three times in my personal case. Your ideas here have no bearing on my reality, and BTW the last thing in the world I’d ever want is the French government managing the maintenance of my body.

I have yet to see any western government ever confront the fact that the root cause of energy security and environmental problems is overpopulation. This is because like any organization, government acts primarily in the interest of self preservation and growth. In the case of government that growth requires more taxpayers, not fewer. The fact that for those taxpayers life ends up being worse is just an unfortunate byproduct of ‘progress’. That ongoing consequence of population exceeding resources is where western Europe in particular is going, EVs and nanny state car regulation included. My advice to any young Europeans who have the opportunity is to get out, unless they have so little talent or energy that relying on others in a society that legitimizes freeloading is their best bet. Right now given barriers to US immigration my younger relatives seem to be looking east, to e.g. Romania regardless of the national health care ‘opportunities’ :) That surprised me but they are completely fed up with living in a closed and shrinking box.
 
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Charley said:
Pakistan I think most of the drivers were stoned and in India their fate was in the hands of their gods so their driving ability had little to do with the success of and one journey.
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Ha ha! That comment about Indian drivers is absolutely on the money. It reminds me of an experience I had as a passenger with an Indian driver.

I used to work (in Australia) with an engineer who was from India. He grew up and was educated in India where gained a PhD in engineering, so he clearly wasn't an idiot. He was actually my boss at the time. I was always amused by his insistence on being called Dr Sharma rather than by his first name, and everyone's failure to comply with that request. He was in Australia FFS. Everyone addressed him by his first name. He was lucky not to be given a stupid nickname. He eventually came to understand that Aussie familiarity was a gesture of friendship and acceptance rather than a lack of respect.
But I digress ...

He was a very scary driver.

Apart from having little understanding about how a car works, and poor skills at actually driving the thing, the most dangerous aspect of his driving was his attitude to other road users. When pulling out into traffic from side streets where he had no right of way, he'd simply do it without looking or caring what the traffic on the main road was doing. The first time he did that with me in the passenger seat I thought he had been distracted by our conversation. So I shut up to let him concentrate on driving.

After he did it a couple more times I had to say something. I asked if he was aware that he had to give way at the last intersection. He waved his hand in a dismissive gesture and said "I am Brahmin, they must give way to me".
And of course they did give way to him. They had no bloody choice but to take evasive action, probably swearing loudly at him while they did so.

I never again got into a car that he was driving. It also has me wondering whether Indian taxi drivers apply the same rule. Possibly something to be nervous about when hailing a taxi?

Notwithstanding that discrimination based on the caste system has been illegal in India for many years, the logic of his bizarre statement completely baffles me.

Even if caste dynamics are still observed socially in India, how do other drivers know he is a member of the Brahmin caste? What if the other driver is also Brahmin? And what makes him think the Hindu caste system is even remotely applicable in Australia?
As charley stated above, I presume he trusts his gods to sort out such trivial details.

Note: If you are unfamiliar with Indian society, Brahmin is the highest social and spiritual class in Hinduism.
 
I use a Carpride 5-inch touchscreen that works perfectly with a gloved finger that links to my phone wirelessly and does anything my phone can do on my 50-year-old Laverda for GPS and Speed Camera Alerts and Music. Fantastic screen in bright sunlight, water- and dustproof, and it links to my Phone now safely in my jacket pocket instead of on the handlebars. I avoid using it on the fly; mucking about while riding isn't smart, and it's easy to set it up before getting on the bike. BTW, later-model phones with voice control allow that on the move; my phone doesn't have that facility. Cost me $400 compared to well over a grand for an uprated phone that wouldn't work as well. Carpride have models that do what I want, plus higher-end models that do all of the stuff modern BMWs and Ducatis do, like forward and aft dash cameras plus blind spot alerts and tying into the bike's Cambuss, whatever the hell that is and using the bike's standard switching to control it all, but both of those don't interest me.
 
Dellortoman said:
Ha ha! That comment about Indian drivers is absolutely on the money. It reminds me of an experience I had as a passenger with an Indian driver.

I used to work (in Australia) with an engineer who was from India. He grew up and was educated in India where gained a PhD in engineering, so he clearly wasn't an idiot. He was actually my boss at the time. I was always amused by his insistence on being called Dr Sharma rather than by his first name, and everyone's failure to comply with that request. He was in Australia FFS. Everyone addressed him by his first name. He was lucky not to be given a stupid nickname. He eventually came to understand that Aussie familiarity was a gesture of friendship and acceptance rather than a lack of respect.
But I digress ...

He was a very scary driver.

Apart from having little understanding about how a car works, and poor skills at actually driving the thing, the most dangerous aspect of his driving was his attitude to other road users. When pulling out into traffic from side streets where he had no right of way, he'd simply do it without looking or caring what the traffic on the main road was doing. The first time he did that with me in the passenger seat I thought he had been distracted by our conversation. So I shut up to let him concentrate on driving.

After he did it a couple more times I had to say something. I asked if he was aware that he had to give way at the last intersection. He waved his hand in a dismissive gesture and said "I am Brahmin, they must give way to me".
And of course they did give way to him. They had no bloody choice but to take evasive action, probably swearing loudly at him while they did so.

I never again got into a car that he was driving. It also has me wondering whether Indian taxi drivers apply the same rule. Possibly something to be nervous about when hailing a taxi?

Notwithstanding that discrimination based on the caste system has been illegal in India for many years, the logic of his bizarre statement completely baffles me.

Even if caste dynamics are still observed socially in India, how do other drivers know he is a member of the Brahmin caste? What if the other driver is also Brahmin? And what makes him think the Hindu caste system is even remotely applicable in Australia?
As charley stated above, I presume he trusts his gods to sort out such trivial details.

Note: If you are unfamiliar with Indian society, Brahmin is the highest social and spiritual class in Hinduism.
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The caste system is alive and well, at least in Silicon Valley. The discrimination by Indian managers is so widespread that California recently passed a law specifically prohibiting it. I see no reason that Australia would be an exception.
 
Great little article, Hamish. Couldn’t agree more. As for Lothars arguments, I have no issue with EVs. And the original post was about gadgets, not EV vs ICE cars. Noone will ever convince me that all this crap being built into cars (and resetting by default every time you get into them as per EU regs) is of benefit or necessarily making cars safer. I simply do not want a car that is telling me my beautiful racing line through a nice series of bends is dangerous and shakes the fukn steering wheel to admonish me.
And as for health systems, if I was living on the poverty line I’d take Australia’s public health system over what’s on offer in the US any day of the week.
 
pf1 said:
Is air conditioning a driver aid Lothar?
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Of course it is. Had my Audi parked at the Mugello GP all day, ca. 1991. When I got in after the races were over, the inside thermometer said 120°C. Took the autostrada to Lucca, all windows rolled down and the fan blowing at full speed. When I arrived at my house in Vicopisano almost 2 hours later it was still 60° inside. I am sure I would have not only had a nicer but a safer drive with AC.
 
Laverda1000.de said:
the inside thermometer said 120°C
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Hi Lothar. I think you must be mistaken. I suspect you were reading Fahrenheit, not Celsius temperatures. I can't believe your car ever got as hot as 120°C, but 120°F is certainly possible.

According to academic studies:
"All day exposure: Temperatures peak and stabilize between 60°C and 75°C+ (140°F to 165°F+)"
"Dashboards and steering wheels: Can reach up to 82°C to 85°C (180°F)

While not particularly relevant to the thread topic or whether aircon is considered a driver aid, it's worth remembering that there have been tragic cases of children and pets dying from heat stroke in cars while the drivers go shopping or to the pub. It's a criminal offence in Australia (and indeed most countries) to leave a child or animal unattended in a hot car, even for a few minutes.
 
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