3CL won't maintain idle until fully warmed up
- Thread starter Chuck3CL
- Start date
maybe dumb question but here goes...With the Ignitech v96 there is and option to switch-select a 2nd Advance Curve.
To overcome that 3-4 minute period while the engine is still cold and doesn't want to hold a good idle, is there a better option for a temporary advance curve e.g., none? or higher? or lower? advance at below 2000 rpm to help the cold engine running?
I could experiment but I thought I'd ask if anyone had tried it. I guess the question for the combustion experts is, which is better for a cold engine, more advance or more retard at low rpm?
To overcome that 3-4 minute period while the engine is still cold and doesn't want to hold a good idle, is there a better option for a temporary advance curve e.g., none? or higher? or lower? advance at below 2000 rpm to help the cold engine running?
I could experiment but I thought I'd ask if anyone had tried it. I guess the question for the combustion experts is, which is better for a cold engine, more advance or more retard at low rpm?
piranha-bro2
Hero member
- Location
- Melbourne
I would have thought more fuel?! But will be interesting to hear from those who know if ignition adv changes will also help.
Is it something you can switch quickly and easily? A handlebar toggle button would be pretty cool! Or a lever like the old manual advance units of old
. Actually they probably answer your question! What was the procedure with manual advance? I thought it was adjusted for engine speed.
Is it something you can switch quickly and easily? A handlebar toggle button would be pretty cool! Or a lever like the old manual advance units of old
. Actually they probably answer your question! What was the procedure with manual advance? I thought it was adjusted for engine speed.
Yes there is I have it set up on my bike for testing other curves. but the toggle switch is not exactly to ground, its to the ground pin on the iginetch box. its in the instructions. You will have to open the white plug and add the extra pin and wire out for the toggle switch. you can get the pins from Red or RS components.
All that said do it that way is over doing a problem you don't need.
I sent up my Ignetech box slightly differently. Instead of setting the Iginetch to TDC you set it up to 6Deg (or 8 Deg) retarded (when the LED on the pick up plate goes out for #1 cyl) Then in the base advance box in the soft ware put in 6 or 8 as appropriate. This setting is very important. second change the first point of the advance curve #1500RPM to 10 Deg
This will allow the soft ware to take control of the idle timing. As Idel speed cycle to cycle is so variable at low engine speed, the software is designed at low RPM to trigger the timing differently. Idle speed timing is set from the rear edge of the pick up lobe and fired at a fixed degree ( I chose 6 deg but have tried 8 deg both good)
The as the RPM goes above the first point on the curve it switches to variable timing dependant on the curve worked out from the front edge of the pick up lobe. As the speed cycle to cycle at 1200-1500 and above is consistent the software no longer needs to fire from a fixed point.
This is designed in to specifically help with poor idle timing.
This is all in the instructions but a better help is from the latest version of the "Fast Bike Gear" manual out of NZ available on line. Both need to be read over several times to get your head around the finer points though
All that said do it that way is over doing a problem you don't need.
I sent up my Ignetech box slightly differently. Instead of setting the Iginetch to TDC you set it up to 6Deg (or 8 Deg) retarded (when the LED on the pick up plate goes out for #1 cyl) Then in the base advance box in the soft ware put in 6 or 8 as appropriate. This setting is very important. second change the first point of the advance curve #1500RPM to 10 Deg
This will allow the soft ware to take control of the idle timing. As Idel speed cycle to cycle is so variable at low engine speed, the software is designed at low RPM to trigger the timing differently. Idle speed timing is set from the rear edge of the pick up lobe and fired at a fixed degree ( I chose 6 deg but have tried 8 deg both good)
The as the RPM goes above the first point on the curve it switches to variable timing dependant on the curve worked out from the front edge of the pick up lobe. As the speed cycle to cycle at 1200-1500 and above is consistent the software no longer needs to fire from a fixed point.
This is designed in to specifically help with poor idle timing.
This is all in the instructions but a better help is from the latest version of the "Fast Bike Gear" manual out of NZ available on line. Both need to be read over several times to get your head around the finer points though
Thanks Jugs_S.
I think I understand what your saying and that's worth a try. By doing what you suggest, effectively the Ignitech sets a fixed timing value rather than making poor estimates of the rotation speed.
One question though, you wrote:
"Instead of setting the Ignietch to TDC you set it up to 6Deg (or 8 Deg) retarded (when the LED on the pick up plate goes out for #1 cyl) "
Since I'm using Red's Hall effect sensors, presently set for 1 Deg base advance, do I rotate the sensors collar CW 6 Deg (before/sooner) actual TDC?
Then change the base advance in Ignitech software.
What you describe in the Ignitech's search for the correct timing at low rpm is apparent when I throttle-up between say 1000 and 1500 rpm in that there does seem to be smoother running as it transitions through that rpm range.
What still isn't clear to me is why the engine temperature would affect it--that is, after warm up the idle is fine with the present 1 Deg base advance.
Could it be simply because the cold engine rotation rate is so variable at this low temperature but that variability improves (and consequently the Ignitech estimation) with higher temps?
I think I understand what your saying and that's worth a try. By doing what you suggest, effectively the Ignitech sets a fixed timing value rather than making poor estimates of the rotation speed.
One question though, you wrote:
"Instead of setting the Ignietch to TDC you set it up to 6Deg (or 8 Deg) retarded (when the LED on the pick up plate goes out for #1 cyl) "
Since I'm using Red's Hall effect sensors, presently set for 1 Deg base advance, do I rotate the sensors collar CW 6 Deg (before/sooner) actual TDC?
Then change the base advance in Ignitech software.
What you describe in the Ignitech's search for the correct timing at low rpm is apparent when I throttle-up between say 1000 and 1500 rpm in that there does seem to be smoother running as it transitions through that rpm range.
What still isn't clear to me is why the engine temperature would affect it--that is, after warm up the idle is fine with the present 1 Deg base advance.
Could it be simply because the cold engine rotation rate is so variable at this low temperature but that variability improves (and consequently the Ignitech estimation) with higher temps?
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Dellortoman
Hero member
- Location
- Tasmania, Australia
Are you sure about that Jugs?
If I haven't misunderstood, you're suggesting setting the pickups after TDC.
The base advance in the Ignitech software is exactly what it says - an ADVANCE figure in degrees before TDC. If the ignition pickup plate is retarded after TDC then you need to set a negative base advance to tell the ignition system where the pickup position is. If your pickups are 6° to 8° after TDC and you set the base advance to (positive) 6° or 8° respectively, then your ignition will be 12° to 16° out of calibration and your bike will run like a hairy goat.
I'm not sure about the Version 96 of the TCIP4 software, but all previous versions will not accept a negative base advance, so you can't set the pickups after TDC.
When I install ignitech systems (haven't done a V96 yet) I try to get the pickup triggering as close to TDC as possible without going after TDC. I'm happy with anything between 0° to 3°. I confirm it with a strobe rather than statically with the little LED on the pickup board. Then I set the first advance map point at about 10° at 500 rpm. That way the engine cranks on the starter at base advance, then as soon as it fires up you're on the advance curve. Makes for easier starting and is less likely to kick back and damage the starting system.
martymoose
Hero member
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Ive never ever let my bikes idle cold, ever. Start, choke off, ride. Takes over 30 seconds for the oil to get to the last cam bucket, no way i would let it idle, just ride. Unless you like foulled plugs, washed bores, rooted cams and buckets.... just saying....
I think Jugs did mean that the pickup is advanced from TDC by 6to 8 deg Cam, but the word 'retard' is confusing, I think he meant the TDC was retarded ( meaning TDC occurs after the pickup). His wouldn't work otherwise.
With your 3deg base and 10deg advance at 500 rpm do you have a smooth idle without throttle when cold?
Something that can dramatically improve on-choke behavior is to lean out the brass work feeding the choke. I did it on my Jota and I have great control over the rpm via the choke, with no bogging down, racing or lumpiness.
As others have suggested, ride off slowly asap, dropping the choke off almost immediately.
As others have suggested, ride off slowly asap, dropping the choke off almost immediately.
martymoose
Hero member
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
500? Try 1000 - 1200. But again, what are you trying to acheive here? Get that oil up the top asap, that means no idle. My rgs had over 200,000 km on originals bores , rings and pistons. Currently my 120 Jota has over 100,000km, all original internals. Oil temperature is only achieved after 15-20 minutes of running. After that, give her the berries!
Ride to the gate, idle, get off, open the gate, get on the bike , ride thru, idle, get off the bike, close the gate.Ive never ever let my bikes idle cold, ever. Start, choke off, ride. Takes over 30 seconds for the oil to get to the last cam bucket, no way i would let it idle, just ride. Unless you like foulled plugs, washed bores, rooted cams and buckets.... just saying....
Prefer idle over start/stop or worse, push.
Agree Paul, but I've run low on lockdown projects, and no way is cleaning the shed one of them.
martymoose
Hero member
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Ok, understand. I lock dog up, open gate, ride to the street, turn it off. Walk back, shut the garage and the gate, then restart the bike. No way would i let it idle. Oh, and Brett, i dont close the taps....
Agreed. Setting up the Ignitech is non-intuative but gives you a lot of flexibility ... I'd be interested in the answer to 'advance at idle' comments.
But, aside from that, I don't use the 'stop, open the gate method, give it a push, close the gate ...' I use the 'into gear, trundle out of the garage, can't get it back into neutral, shut it off, start again and ride method'.
It takes at least 10 mins to get the engine up to temp and gearbox to work cleanly.
breganzane
Hero member
- Location
- NSW Australia
After 10 years of Marty's procedure, I installed an electric gate opener about 6 months ago. Revelation! Highly recommended.
, but to refocus the thread my real question was any ideas on improving the Ignitech set-up for cold start low RPM running.
I stuffed up my word choice in original post thanks for catching I have edited but left my stuff up with correction so other comments make sense
This is what I have done it on all the Iginetch I have put on many bikes and have been getting feed back. The reason it runs better after warm up is the tick over is steadier after the carb eng warm up, but I find this set up help with Idle all over.
As to set up I'm using Reds pick up plate too. The set up I use is harder to set up initially as you have to use a timing wheel and dead stop.
my routine is
A) plugs out,
B) take off cover ect ( depends on 180 or 120 eng) so pick up plate is visible
C) install timing wheel, dead stop with timing wheel to set pointer at TDC # 1 ( if you are not sure on this let me know and I'll put a explanation)
D) dead stop out
E) key on, turn eng in the direction of normal engine rotation ( important) very slowly by hand. light LED will come on as first magnet go's past pick up, turn over very very slowly till LED goes out as second magnet get to sensor.
F) READ timing wheel. If you set it up as per Reds instructions it should be TDC #1
G) Move pick up plate to 6 or 8 Deg advance BE VERY CARFUL here it is easy to go wrong way
H) turn over engine again check that #1 cyc pick up light goes out at 6 or 8 Deg BEFORE TDC recheck recheck recheck
The LED should go out 6 or 8 deg before TDC on the timing wheel
I) remember the actual number you chose to set
J Put this number into the box in the software called base Advance
It is badly named it should be called ""Engine base pick up position"" its job is to tell the software where the timing is physically on any engine. Its the start line for the software
L) change the first set point on the curve #1500 RPM to 10 Deg. Software has trouble if physical base advance and first set point is within 250 RPM ( from Fast Bike Gear notes)
L) reassemble and test.
Example
2 pix are of a Base advance 1 deg and base advance 6 deg and the change to the curve .
This is just how I do it and how I find I personally get good results. Not better or worse just my personal preferences and my reasoning. It is harder to set up you need the right tools and it is easy to make a mistake.
This is what I have done it on all the Iginetch I have put on many bikes and have been getting feed back. The reason it runs better after warm up is the tick over is steadier after the carb eng warm up, but I find this set up help with Idle all over.
As to set up I'm using Reds pick up plate too. The set up I use is harder to set up initially as you have to use a timing wheel and dead stop.
my routine is
A) plugs out,
B) take off cover ect ( depends on 180 or 120 eng) so pick up plate is visible
C) install timing wheel, dead stop with timing wheel to set pointer at TDC # 1 ( if you are not sure on this let me know and I'll put a explanation)
D) dead stop out
E) key on, turn eng in the direction of normal engine rotation ( important) very slowly by hand. light LED will come on as first magnet go's past pick up, turn over very very slowly till LED goes out as second magnet get to sensor.
F) READ timing wheel. If you set it up as per Reds instructions it should be TDC #1
G) Move pick up plate to 6 or 8 Deg advance BE VERY CARFUL here it is easy to go wrong way
H) turn over engine again check that #1 cyc pick up light goes out at 6 or 8 Deg BEFORE TDC recheck recheck recheck
The LED should go out 6 or 8 deg before TDC on the timing wheel
I) remember the actual number you chose to set
J Put this number into the box in the software called base Advance
It is badly named it should be called ""Engine base pick up position"" its job is to tell the software where the timing is physically on any engine. Its the start line for the software
L) change the first set point on the curve #1500 RPM to 10 Deg. Software has trouble if physical base advance and first set point is within 250 RPM ( from Fast Bike Gear notes)
L) reassemble and test.
Example
2 pix are of a Base advance 1 deg and base advance 6 deg and the change to the curve .
This is just how I do it and how I find I personally get good results. Not better or worse just my personal preferences and my reasoning. It is harder to set up you need the right tools and it is easy to make a mistake.
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