Cartridge Kits for M1R

G'day all. I'm doing the teflon bush conversion on a set of 38mm Marzocchi forks that Vince has mentioned. To do this has been a fair bit or of rooting around and I'm not sure I'd bother doing it again and I'm still not finished so I can't report on whether it's been worth it. Anyway, I started with a set of 38mm Marzo's sliders I bought off Ducati Paddy which were slightly bent for some reason so they're perfect for this modification, a set of VT/VFR Honda Showa fork cartridges and a set of 38mm Yamaha XJ Seca forks which are 595mm long. The idea has been to use the Marzzo sliders, the Yamaha bushed stanchions and the Honda cartridges.

The first job was to get the sliders machined/honed and this took me months to find someone capable of doing it. No one in Australia seems to have the capability (as far as I can work out) to machine the legs so honing seems to be the only available option. I used a mob in Sydney (Diamond Hard Chrome) who apparently did some for Laverda Oz but I've never heard if they were successful or not. I chose the Yamaha legs because they already have a bush seat on the bottom of the stanchion and I could also get the I.D. for the slider. Breganzane is right and the clearance needed is 39mm. This cost me $400 after they quoted $300 but then tried to charge me $500 after snapping the lip off one of the sliders. They had it fixed but then wanted to charge me for it as well so we negotiated a price. I then had a local bloke machine the top bush seat in the Marzzo sliders for a carton of XXXX Gold so the leg now sides beautifully up and down. Yamaha teflon bushes aren't cheap and cost me $80 for the set. That's been the easy bit.

I chased up Ron Young, the Ducati engineer near Maitland and he says he's done quite a few variations from just modifying some Showa cartridges to adding bushes. He reckons the simplest way to add bushes is to use Ceriani stanchions because they have enough meat to machine in the lower seat. I can't comment on this method because he didn't say whether he'd honed out the sliders or not or kept the bush inside the 38mm clearance. Road and Race sell Ceriani legs for a couple of hundred bucks so I'm tempted to change tack here. The reason being is that there is a lot of rooting around making various spacers to shoe horn in the Honda cartridges into a Yamaha stanchion. The main problem is fitting the cartridge through the bottom of the tube and mating it with the standard 12mm cap head screw (Showa use 8mm) used to join the damper rod and the slider. I've designed a top hat type plug to fit a longer 8mm cap head (which I might change still) but I reckon it'd be easier using Ceriani legs because the cartridge can fit right through and would be easier to make a joining top hat spacer similar to what was there from standard.

The other side to this adaptation is fitting the top caps and shortening the adjuster rods. Ron Y. hides his inside the forks to keep the period look but I decided to have them exposed so I can muck around with it. I've kept the Honda caps and had them re-threaded to fit the Yamaha threads. Marzocchi ones are too small and can't be used. The beauty of the Honda cartridges is that there are a number of simple modifications anyone can make to improve them. Or you can swap out the cartridges, which are removable and have then tricked up by a suspension shop. There's numerous options available to play with the shim stacks.

This project has taken me years to get this far and I still haven't had the time to finish it though I hope to later in the year. Cost wise I've spent about $1500, re-hard chroming the Yamaha legs, honing the sliders, buying the various fork bits and pieces, some Race Tech springs and supplying beer for a few blokes with lathes. That's a set of forks for $1500 and with a pair triple clamps makes them reasonably priced considering the technical level of improvement. Maybe it's good value, time will tell? My guess is that it will transform the front end because it will have reduced stiction so I can then try to improve the damping control. If you own a 38mm forked bike then you either put up with what it came with, use emulators which are fine on a race track and (I reckon) average on the road or use something bigger, more modern or try this.

If you want photos just ask and I'll get some posted.


Cheers 
 
Folks, thanks so much for your input, really appreciated.

For the Laverda M1R Owners, there seem to be different choices:

-Get the M1R cartridge converted by the likes of Maxton, HH-Racetech etc.  => 850 - 900?
-Get a BMW K1100 version of the M1R and make some adapters for the calipers and the axle and adopt it with the cartridge I posted => 850 - 900? in total with purchasing the fork
-Get - if you can - a Guzzi Daytona/1100 Sport fork. That one has already compression and rebound damping, is made for 305mm discs with P4 40mm calipers. Very rare, come at several 100? (last one I saw was for 600 - 700?)

Adopting an M1R to the cartridge-System will involve a lot of machining if it does not have the lower Teflon-bushes.

So - at the end, it does not matter which way you go, you will always spend 850 - 900? at least...  :-[

 
Thanks bigly Chris for a comprehensive rundown - it's not hard to see the huge amount of time and money these custom jobs demand - and my workshop is full of them, all for my two SF specials!

Thanks also Lothar. Having only 38mm M1rs it's looking like I might be better off properly setting up the VFR Kayabas (already have adaptors for Goldline 08s) or the early GSX-R Showas (with adaptors for 4-spot Tokicos). I never did any work to get the damping or springing right, so there should be easy gains there. Neither have adjustable compression or rebound damping, which is a negative, bit it would appear that emulators are readily available. I have noticed that the hard chroming is nowhere near as good as it was on my old 35mm Cerianis - rust spots on both brands.

Of course, this is for a non-rivet counter's machines, so the rules are easy - anything goes! And USD Yamaha 0W01 forks on bike #1 should be a treat!
 
"it would appear that emulators are readily available."
Q emulators are for non cartridge damper units to emulate the work of a shimstack valve on compression damping only. I think you?ll find that the units you have are cartridge systems with shimstack valves and you can get Racetech Goldvalves or similar to replace the originals, set up by them, and with new springs, to your bike and rider weight. Still all costs but much simpler than all the machining to modify Ceri or Maz forks.
 
Laverdalothar said:
-Get - if you can - a Guzzi Daytona/1100 Sport fork. That one has already compression and rebound damping, is made for 305mm discs with P4 40mm calipers. Very rare, come at several 100? (last one I saw was for 600 - 700?)

I know where I can get one of these complete with yokes for about $700 USA ....... does that sound like a good idea for a Formula Mirage?
 
Jim, this depends on the rest of the bike... Do you plan to use 4-Pot calipers with 40mm mounting holes on 305mm disks? if so, the fork is a perfect fit. If you want to stay with P08 or 280mm disks, I would have the lower fork parts (brand new...) of an M1R (Ducati F1?!?)

If you want to use P08 on a 305mm Disc, the BMW fork could be a good fit (and is cheaper, but with no adjustments other than changing the springs or oil or increasing oil-level...). That said, you will need some adapters for the front axle then...
 
FYI,
Maxton like to do a complete job that's why the racer's like them.
They are not back street monkeys
Cost is half what you are quoting, full coversion ,seal's,oil,the top seal part of the bottoms cut of and replaced on 4 legs(2 spair). Damage done by monkey and screw driver
Total Cost ?400
Lot cheaper than new carbs,suzuki wheels and all the other bollocks
 
If stanchions need new hard chrome then cost from Maxton is 800 GBP.
I have had several sets done by them.
 
Hmm, after bouncing around a bit on the 38mm forks on my modded 3cl at the TT, I'm going down the Maxton route and some better shocks to replace the Konis. Couldn't move for Maxton stuff in the paddock!

My mate was considering a fork conversion for his Griso (which is pretty good as standard imho) and these are recent prices they quoted a month or so back (none include hard chroming as per Grant's mail).

On your forks but have no spec sheet for you to read.  We convert your
forks, but not by modifying the existing internals.  We throw everything
inside the fork away and start again with our internals.

The internals we supply is our own GP20 cartridge style damping system.
The cartridge system is the same type of internal as what you would find
in any modern front fork.  It has been manufactured and developed by our
own engineers and has pistons and shim stacks for the rebound and
compression damping.  The Cartridge also has needle valves so you can
adjust the damping.  The damping adjusters are external, so you can change
the damping without having to strip the forks down, but we hide the
adjusters to keep the classic appearance.  As part of the conversion we
also machine new fork tops to take the new cartridges and damping
adjusters.  We also fit new springs.

Every Maxton GP20 cartridge is built to order, the reason for this is to
valve and spring the cartridges to suit the fork, the bike, the riders
weight and what they are using the bike for.  Once the cartridge has been
manufactured we then fit the cartridge to the fork to make sure it works
correctly.  In most conversions we have to modify the original bottom
sliders and stanchions so our cartridge will fit and work properly.  The
forks are then returned to you fully serviced with new seals and the
spring preload and damping set up.

The Maxton GP20 cartridge costs between ?380.00 and ?720.00 + V.A.T.
Depending on how adjustable you want the cartridge to be.

- For ?380.00 + V.A.T the cartridge is adjustable for rebound damping.

- For ?520.00 + V.A.T the cartridge is adjustable for rebound damping and
preload.

- For ?580.00 + V.A.T the cartridge is adjustable for rebound and
compression damping.

- For ?720.00 + V.A.T the cartridge is adjustable for rebound and
compression damping and preload.

To service the forks with new seals and install the cartridges costs an
extra ?145.00 + V.A.T on top of the cartridge.

All adjustments can be made without having to strip the forks down.

To dyno and respring the std rear shock would cost ?95.00 + V.A.T.

 
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