Laverdalothar
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- Germany
OCT seem to have improved a lot now with 3 mechanics and Roger doing the logistics. I waited just for the engine-rebuild though something like 5 years. Just to prepare you for some waiting time...
Doing it yourself
- Thread starter Laverdalothar
- Start date
Thomas aus LAU
Hero member
Laverdalothar said:
Solution: do it yourself!
Laverda motors are easy to repair and you don't need a lot of special tools.
You will also get an insight into what is in your engine and what condition the parts are in.
It takes half a day to disassemble the engine and check which parts have to be reworked or replaced.
If you have all the parts, you need another half or a day until the engine is completely rebuilt.
I've been doing this on my motorcycles and my friends' bikes for about 40 years with no problems.
Several times I was only the teacher / coach, the inexperienced owner had to do all the work himself.
It always worked great, even earlier, when there was no Internet and Google.
If you don't start one day, you never get experience ;-)
Best Thomas aus LAU
Laverdalothar
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- Germany
I agree it is not rocket-sience. However, I do not have the tools or possibilities to dismantel, re-work and re-install, straighten and balance a crank f.e., rework a cylinder-head with new valve guides, new seats etc. all the other machining involved and that is essential on a total overhaul I feel. Beside that, the rest is fairly easy (maybe except for the gearbox spacing and adjustment). Still, I prefer to let the pro's do that, even if it takes years. The solution ist to always have one running bike... 
piranha-bro2
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- Melbourne
Thomas aus LAU said:
Thar be (potential) demons!! I reckon we've seen Piet and other post enough on the pitfalls of 'some' owners undertaking their own significant (or even utterly basic in some cases!) maintenance or reco work.
sideshow
Hero member
Thomas aus LAU said:
hmmmm maybe it could be "do what you can yourself". Some people like me dont have time to do it all ourselves, and I dont have the knowledge nor a teacher coach that I would trust to show me how to do things I dont have the knowledge to do. I have learnt a lot from the forum and from you tube, but Im not tackling a rebuild on an engine by myself. And im not about to pull an engine apart to go oops, I fucked that up, I have no idea what Im doing here. No mechanic I know wants a box of bits turning up to them. But that said, Im not prepared to wait 1 year, 3 years or 5- 9 years for work to be done either, even if I had two or more bikes to ride. If that would happen I would change bike brand I just dont see the point of owning a bike that would take such a long time to have worked on. I want to ride my bike not wait for years to ride it. Life's too short .
G
Grant
Guest
Then learn, that's what I did.
Will save time and money in the long run.
Will save time and money in the long run.
Ditto, to quote John. A man must know his limitations. I have been very lucky to know some experienced Laverda Club blokes and that Queensland bloke who has a big shed full of big machines and years of experience building Laverda motors. It also helps to spend very big bags of cash. And even then issues arise.
Laverdalothar
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- Location
- Germany
Grant said:
so you have learned to do the cranks and heads now on your own? Thought they are still done by someone else...
Thomas aus LAU
Hero member
Piranha Brother 2 said:
Some additional comments:
OCT
OCT is a perfect workshop that does a very good job and where I also buy my spare parts.
However, a workshop is no guarantee that you will get a perfectly repaired engine. I know two other Laverda dealers in Germany who have delivered scrap several times (Lothar, you know one of them).
I didn't say that every Laverda driver should become a mechanic. But if you have several Laverdas and / or have extremely long waiting times at the workshop, you should look for solutions - Laverdas want to be driven.
Of course you will make some mistakes at the beginning and you also have to acquire appropriate expertise over the years and know what torque, bearing play, lambda value, ... are. But believe me - even workshops only cook with water?.
Those who know me know that I drive very long distances with Laverdas to Turkey, Greece, Sicily, Spain, France, ... regardless of whether it is raining or night. 600 km / day on small country roads is only possible if your bike is absolutely perfect and reliable.
Having 6-9 Laverdas in the past, I would not have had the time, nerves and enough money in the past to have the bikes repaired in a workshop.
Of course, I don't hoist my cylinders myself in the backyard, but instead I have a specialist at hand like many workshops do.
There are many in the Laverda community who repair their engines themselves. Most of them are more like "lonely wolves" as I have lived for 25 years before I joined the Laverda Connection Oberpfals (LCO) and the forums.
Many of these self-trained specialists do not move visibly on the Internet.
One example is Hans Tuscher, who can boast ingenious restorations and home-made buildings, but is nowhere visible on the net.
Example: converting a three-cylinder to a toothed belt, dry clutch and single-sided swing arm - no problem for Hans.
By the way - he is not a trained mechanic but a tiler
If you don't have quick technical help around the corner - be brave, learn technical skills and start with simple repairs.
Best Thomas aus LAU
CLEMTOG
Hero member
"Then learn, that's what I did.
Will save time and money in the long run."
I agree entirely Grant, I have always done these things myself, with much help from my dad and uncle, starting at a very early age with a Francis Barnet at ten years old, but wait lawn mowers before that! (my very first business venture was cutting grass in nearby houses, about 4 or 5 and doing holiday cover for a few others) A good few years ago now, getting on for 25, maybe more, I was very, very busy, working 7 days and 10 or even 14 hour days and had the occasion to break the bike on an extremely rare weekend away, and the bike sat for about a year not rideable, when I sent it to a repairer and paid the bill, it was crap, and went back, paid more money, it was still crap, and it went back, and so on and so forth, work then settled a bit, I bought a wreck and used just the engine, and later rebuilt te crap one myself, which I had done previously and still do. The repair bill from dodgy XYZ was shocking even then. I am not saying who that was or even what country it was in, but the Laverda repair side of that outfit has virtually gone now, but I have recovered (mentally) from it and remade the friendship that existed before.
The difficulty with home spannering is always cover, space, facilities and tooling, but a lot manage on next to nothing, the next problem is outside help is almost always needed, such as crank pressing, re-boring, cylinder head work etc, and you can get tied down with waiting for all of that, and if non specialists are used (cylinder heads especially) then poor workmanship very often results. Re-boring should be a simple enough process for a skilled man with the right machinery, if clearances can be quoted (that in itself can be a subject of conjecture even to the makers of pistons themselves!) then it should all be OK, a local re-borer has cocked up more than a few cylinders lately with one of them being mine, very costly to put right and if he hasn't got a pot to piss in, you will waste your time in a county court. What he was doing was inverting the cylinder block and using the top face as a datum, which works well and is fairly widely practised, but if that joint is not square to the axis of the bore its no good and this is what he was/is doing, the cylinder base is much harder to use a a datum, but works much better, no one is using that re-borer any more, just one example of the outside work that the home mechanic usually requires.
CLEM
Will save time and money in the long run."
I agree entirely Grant, I have always done these things myself, with much help from my dad and uncle, starting at a very early age with a Francis Barnet at ten years old, but wait lawn mowers before that! (my very first business venture was cutting grass in nearby houses, about 4 or 5 and doing holiday cover for a few others) A good few years ago now, getting on for 25, maybe more, I was very, very busy, working 7 days and 10 or even 14 hour days and had the occasion to break the bike on an extremely rare weekend away, and the bike sat for about a year not rideable, when I sent it to a repairer and paid the bill, it was crap, and went back, paid more money, it was still crap, and it went back, and so on and so forth, work then settled a bit, I bought a wreck and used just the engine, and later rebuilt te crap one myself, which I had done previously and still do. The repair bill from dodgy XYZ was shocking even then. I am not saying who that was or even what country it was in, but the Laverda repair side of that outfit has virtually gone now, but I have recovered (mentally) from it and remade the friendship that existed before.
The difficulty with home spannering is always cover, space, facilities and tooling, but a lot manage on next to nothing, the next problem is outside help is almost always needed, such as crank pressing, re-boring, cylinder head work etc, and you can get tied down with waiting for all of that, and if non specialists are used (cylinder heads especially) then poor workmanship very often results. Re-boring should be a simple enough process for a skilled man with the right machinery, if clearances can be quoted (that in itself can be a subject of conjecture even to the makers of pistons themselves!) then it should all be OK, a local re-borer has cocked up more than a few cylinders lately with one of them being mine, very costly to put right and if he hasn't got a pot to piss in, you will waste your time in a county court. What he was doing was inverting the cylinder block and using the top face as a datum, which works well and is fairly widely practised, but if that joint is not square to the axis of the bore its no good and this is what he was/is doing, the cylinder base is much harder to use a a datum, but works much better, no one is using that re-borer any more, just one example of the outside work that the home mechanic usually requires.
CLEM
Thomas aus LAU said:
"Learning" the hard way was quite bit cheaper 30-odd years ago, the simplest fuck-up these days can set you back a couple of grand. Cam bearings, pistons and other consumables are at least 5 times the price they once were, if you can find them. "aquiring expertise over the years" will have you bankrupt in a very short time, won't even take years!
If you want to learn how to DIY, start with a Simson or similar, something you just chuck in the skip if you fuck it up.
Hans has his share of expertise help in the background, I can assure you that!
piet
Thomas aus LAU
Hero member
sfcpiet said:
Of course - even most dealers have their external specialists for crankshafts, honing cylinders, grinding camshafts, mill and grind valves,...... . I?m doing that in the same way.
But if you're the "director/regiseur" of an engine overhaul, you don't have to wait five years for the action to complete.
One part of the job is technical knowledgement, the other part ist to organize the parts and the different external speciallists.
The result at the end counts - Hans?s bikes are the maximum (technical and design) you can get.
We don?t have to battle which strategy is the right one - there are several ways to come to Rome ;-)
Best Thomas aus LAU
Laverdalothar
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- Germany
I fully respect autodedacts, my brother is a very good example (when he was running his bike shop roughly 20 years ago). Many of them are able to do "out of the box thinking" and come to great, creative and well working solutions experts would never ever consider. I call it the "Bumblebee-effect": a bumblebee is technically not able to fly - everyone that studied aerodynamics would tell you. The good thing on the Bumblebee is: she does not know anything about aerodynamics.
To the point of "it goes faster if you are the director of your restoration: well - only if you have proper machine shops that have high quality, low prices and a quick return time. Else - no...
It took me ages to find someone who can machine the crank webs according to a well known Laverda specialists specs. 3 Mechanics did not even start within 6 months, the 4th ruined a tooth on the center web beyond the point of economic repair. Thanks to a fellow Laverdista who helped me out with that exact part I was back in business again after 3 weeks... took another 4 weeks until I got that one machined, too... Had to bring the big-end pins to another workshop as they can not be machined, they needed eroding... then the head... then the pistons were not available. Had to ask Red if I can purchase them from him from Australia, as Ross Racing did not want to produce a single set (minimum was 4 sets = 12 Pistons). And so on and so on... At the end, just getting all parts together took me something like 3 years and was no where cheaper than getting it done by one source. finally, the crank hat to be put back together, balanced etc.. that part though was the quickest, I think turn-around time was something like 5-6 months (including head tuning).
So - no, my experience is that it does not help on the timing. But that might be just me... :-[
Where are the times when my brother got a bike on a Friday, took it apart, gave away the head and the crank to get them reworked by professional engine repair shops and re-assembled the bike so it was ready for the customer the next Friday? Long gone... :-[
Or when Hanu from Finland arrived on a Thursday evening at his place with the info: "bike shoots since W?rzburg...". Engine out after dinner, head of - valve with a missing edge found. Next morning 6:00, my brother was at the machine shop, had a Opel Vectra Valve re-worked and installed, seat controlled and new valve grind in. When we woke up, he had fresh roles for us and was installing the head already on the engine. 10:00 after first run and re-torquing, we took off to Italy... Re-torqued the head after 400km and again after 800km, which took Hanu faultlessly to Finland as far as I remember.
Point is as Piet says: and then there comes the "what happens if something happens..." point into play...
the guys that can do it quicker meanwhile are rare and have so many engines in the queue, they are not quicker anymore...
Again - full respect to everyone doing it on their own or with minor help of proper machine shops. I prefer to have it done completely by one source now and be sure that guy knows his stuff. Would maybe think different, if OCT or Piet would not be in short distance... ;-)
To the point of "it goes faster if you are the director of your restoration: well - only if you have proper machine shops that have high quality, low prices and a quick return time. Else - no...
It took me ages to find someone who can machine the crank webs according to a well known Laverda specialists specs. 3 Mechanics did not even start within 6 months, the 4th ruined a tooth on the center web beyond the point of economic repair. Thanks to a fellow Laverdista who helped me out with that exact part I was back in business again after 3 weeks... took another 4 weeks until I got that one machined, too... Had to bring the big-end pins to another workshop as they can not be machined, they needed eroding... then the head... then the pistons were not available. Had to ask Red if I can purchase them from him from Australia, as Ross Racing did not want to produce a single set (minimum was 4 sets = 12 Pistons). And so on and so on... At the end, just getting all parts together took me something like 3 years and was no where cheaper than getting it done by one source. finally, the crank hat to be put back together, balanced etc.. that part though was the quickest, I think turn-around time was something like 5-6 months (including head tuning).
So - no, my experience is that it does not help on the timing. But that might be just me... :-[
Where are the times when my brother got a bike on a Friday, took it apart, gave away the head and the crank to get them reworked by professional engine repair shops and re-assembled the bike so it was ready for the customer the next Friday? Long gone... :-[
Or when Hanu from Finland arrived on a Thursday evening at his place with the info: "bike shoots since W?rzburg...". Engine out after dinner, head of - valve with a missing edge found. Next morning 6:00, my brother was at the machine shop, had a Opel Vectra Valve re-worked and installed, seat controlled and new valve grind in. When we woke up, he had fresh roles for us and was installing the head already on the engine. 10:00 after first run and re-torquing, we took off to Italy... Re-torqued the head after 400km and again after 800km, which took Hanu faultlessly to Finland as far as I remember.
Point is as Piet says: and then there comes the "what happens if something happens..." point into play...
the guys that can do it quicker meanwhile are rare and have so many engines in the queue, they are not quicker anymore...
Again - full respect to everyone doing it on their own or with minor help of proper machine shops. I prefer to have it done completely by one source now and be sure that guy knows his stuff. Would maybe think different, if OCT or Piet would not be in short distance... ;-)
piranha-bro2
Hero member
- Location
- Melbourne
I personally think some people have innate skill and some don't ... some are innately good runners, and some are not too. Seriously, the smart among us understand their limitations. Very true what Piet says about the seriously more expense involved in buying parts for these bikes these days. When I was 21 I could buy genuine Mondial OS pistons for my SF for AU$12. I still have a receipt for a primary cover for about $16!!
As a mechanic/builder, I choose what stuff I am happy to undertake myself, and what I prefer to entrust to people I have good reason to believe are excellent at things I have never or am yet to learn - eg, welding and some machining (eg, when a proper milling machine (is required, something that I don't have and can't justify buying from the family budget!).
Even outsourcing can take longer than I would prefer - I get very impatient - we're talking weeks! But luckily I haven't ever had to wait nine years
As a mechanic/builder, I choose what stuff I am happy to undertake myself, and what I prefer to entrust to people I have good reason to believe are excellent at things I have never or am yet to learn - eg, welding and some machining (eg, when a proper milling machine (is required, something that I don't have and can't justify buying from the family budget!).
Even outsourcing can take longer than I would prefer - I get very impatient - we're talking weeks! But luckily I haven't ever had to wait nine years
Dellortoman
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Laverdalothar said:
I've sometimes heard people say "It doesn't work in theory, but it does in practice", or words to that effect. It's a concept that I find annoyingly fatuous and perhaps a little delusional.
The simple truth is that if a theory is unable to explain something that happens in reality, then the theoretical model is inadequate.
Laverdalothar
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- Location
- Germany
Dellortoman said:
That is true and is also true for the Bumblebee effect: sientists found out later, that the bumblebee is turning its wings while flapping them, which then produces enough unterpressure to lift it up.
It is similar to a situation where my brother installed larger headers to 120? Laverdas (mainly RGS and SFC) and found them to produce more torque. Every expert told him that is not possible... years later, I got a call from one of those experts telling me that they now offer larger headers for RGS and SFC as they just found out that this results in more torque. Made me smile...
Laverda1000.de
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- Haßberge, Germany
I don't think the main title of the thread can be changed. Anyway, thanks for the emotional support and your suggestions. Bike 1 is ready for pickup, which I'll do next Monday. One thing you guys haven't mentioned, besides skill and maybe motivation is also how one functions as a human being. Being a procrastinator I am glad I can manage to keep my life afloat with family, dog, very busy job, travel, golf etc. I have had triple engines apart when I was still at university, when the only item of that list already relevant was travel. But believe me, before I gave the bikes away one had been a basket case for over a decade, the second had sat 5 years with a broken mainshaft and I had just sold a non running 90% finished Harris 1200. If I had kept on believing my own spiel of "Nur bi die Vergosers muss ich noch bi", (basically "just have to finish tuning the carbs") they would still be gathering dust in the garage... So to each his own.
J
John lord
Guest
Do what you thinks best for yourself , end off . If you need help get it ,if not continue , we all need help at some time . Your not better or worse , choices that the choice , choose whats best for you, to complete your task
Dellortoman
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Laverda1000.de said:
I was intending to procrastinate today, but I think I'll leave it until tomorrow.