Jesus nut locking tool

Jugs_S

Senior member
Location
Sydney
A mate has just had a hydro cutter installed in the workshop I'm talking to him about makeing up a Jesus nut locking tool, very similar to the factory one on page 73 the old green book. I there if there is enough interest at a resinable cost I may be able to get him to do a run of them.

please let me know

Jugs_S
 
Jugs

I'd be up for one, even with shipping to US. I tried to grind one out of a piece of steel myself, didn't work well, tool was so soft it bent as soon as I tried to use it. The Brembo brake pad wedged between the sprockets did it for me, but I did bust a couple of teeth off the clutch sprocket. Time for the right tool for the job.

Ken
 
I made my own too. Solid as a brick shit-house.

I probably won't get as much use out if it now that I've bought a rattle gun. But it's handy for checking the torque on reassembly.

On the subject of torque, the workshop manual says 10 kg.m (100 Nm) which doesn't actually feel like a lot when swinging on the torque wrench. When I undid the nut on the 3C it needed about 250 Nm to crack it free (was off the range of my 200 Nm torque wrench). That nut hadn't been off since it was done up in the factory. Were they using higher torque than recommended in the manual? What torque do the regular engine builders on this forum use? The thread could probably handle more than 100 Nm.

Cheers,
Cam
 

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  • Primary drive locking tool.jpg
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Cam

one of my main reasons for making the tool is that with out being able to lock it, I've been rattling it up to a looks about right torque.

Jugs_S
 
I actually don't much like the factory style locking tool, as all the torque gets turned into a bending moment on the end of the unsupported gearbox mainshaft (already prone to breaking).  I made one with a handle about 600mm long, which can be used as a wrench itself or just chocked against the ground/worktable.

Cheers
Steve B
 
Hi Steve, I'm with you in not wanting to react the torque against the g/b mainshaft.

My primary sprocket has some holes and missing middle teeth, so I fashioned up this Heath-Robinson sprocket holder. (sheet of scrap alu, 5 dowel pins and 2 long lever arms). I thought the alu might bend or shear, but it took the torque in its stride and has plenty of strength to spare.

laverda%20jota%20primary%20drive%20nut%20tool.jpg


laverda%20jota%20primary%20drive%20nut%20tool%20%283%29.jpg


laverda%20jota%20primary%20drive%20nut%20tool%20%282%29.jpg
 
Brilliant tool Paul.
However, for those with cast wheel machines, a piece of wood between wheel and swingarm works fine with bike in gear.

Ciao
Paul
 
I can't do the Maths (probably could if I really thought about it!) but gut feel tells me that the bending moment on the mainshaft would be the same for the factory tool and the Paul M "wood in the wheel" method... In that method the bending moment is generated by the chain acting on the sprocket rather than direct on the shaft, but wouldn't it end up as the same result?

Sounds like the sort of problem Cam would get his head round...

--
Dick
 
The breaking torque is always higher than the tightening torque because of the friction generated by the surfaces that are clamped together.Whatever lube [if any] used on assembly has been squeezed out of the joining surfaces and the pressure of the combined area of the face and the threads along with the deformation/compression caused by the torque is higher than the torque that joined it.Some of the reason it doesn't feel that tight when you torque things is the fact you didn't take it apart with a tool that offers the same leverage as what is afforded by the length of the torque wrench.Most are sized to offer a reasonable effort required to achieve the high end of the wrenches capacity so they are generally longer than the tools we use for disassembly.On the Laverdas the primary drive doesn't really cause much sideloading on the primary gear or the clutch basket so 100nm is probably more than sufficent.Heck, the clutch side of things is retained by a snap ring so the side loads can't be that great.On the alternator side the taper fit with its increased surface area would almost call for even less torque than 100nm and overtightening that could split the rotor and cause all sorts of problems with the timing and such.
 
VanguardontheLav said:
Sounds like the sort of problem Cam would get his head round...

Yes, and the numbers look a bit scary!

Assuming 100Nm applied to the nut on the crank:

Bending force on the clutch shaft using the factory tool = 567N (about 58kg)

Bending force on the clutch shaft by jamming the rear wheel = 2632N (about 269kg), so you're putting more than 4 times the load on the poor old clutch shaft! Plus the fact that you're loading up the whole drive train much more than it would normally be loaded under driving conditions. Something might break.

Cheers,
Cam
 
The other problem with the wood-in-wheel method is that there is so much 'give' going on, you get absolutely no feel for what is happening. I don't like that when torquing things down, the feel through the torque wrench can give you just as much valuable info as the setting on the dial IMHO.
 
The reason I was thinking about making up the tool is I do a fair bit of bench assembly (not as much as Red but enough)

Cam what to you think about a cross over between the two. A plate that bolts to the casing using the front 6 or so bolts (have to work out shear load on the casing holes) and pins like Paul H. ?

Jugs_S
 
This is Andy Wagner's solution:

misc3057.jpg


He also thinks that it is possible to bend the clutch shaft using the standard tool.  This locates in the front sprocket holes with two pegs and is bolted to the case at the back.  Works best when the chains are off so I prefer using my carefully filed bit of 6mm steel.  I profiled the ends to bear on the root of the teeth, none broken so far.

Reggie
 
Andy Wagner's tool (that he seems to be very proud of) also bolts to the case, but his is longer and thinner and attaches on the other side of the clutch with only 2 screws. Allows the tool to be a lever arm and doesn't put so much sideways force on the M6 case screws, I guess. Also maybe a little more compact? His is also steel and does work with just the 2 holes on the crank sprocket, not many Laverdas have the extra holes.

Ken

Looks like Reggie had the same idea as me at the same time.
 
A tool that uses some solid part of the bike as an anchor point is the best solution. It avoids putting any lateral load on the gearbox shaft like the factory tool does, loading up the drive train as with the locked rear wheel, or loading up the primary chain and sprocket teeth as with the chock between the primary drive sprockets.

BTW, the chock between the sprockets is by far the worst solution. Because of the relative angles between components, it puts extroardinarily high loads on the shafts, primary chain and sprocket teeth - we're talking numbers in the order of 1000kg. You could quite easily bend shafts, break sprocket teeth or break the chain. At the very least, it will stretch the taut side of the primary chain. I wouldn't use a primary chain that had been abused in that way. My recomendation would be don't even think about using that method - it's just asking for trouble. Even if nothing breaks while you're doing it, you could end up running on a weakened primary chain.

The primary case bolt holes are convenient anchor points because they are nearby, but the further away the anchor point the better. It's just like having a long handle on a spanner - the longer the handle, the less pressure it needs to turn a nut. So if you're going to use the M6 threaded holes for the primary case attachment, use the holes that are furthest away like Andy Wagner's tool does.

I assume the two tubular spacers in the photo of AW's tool are to space the tool the correct distance out from the primary case mating surface (no idea why they have nuts on them though). But those spacers will have a bending load on them because the tool applies a force to the outer end of the bolts. That bending load could potentially bend the bolts, or even tend to pull the bolts out of the aluminium casing using the edge of the spacer as a fulcrum (similar to the way a claw hammer pulls a nail). If that happens, the spacers could put an indentation in the primary case mating surface. A better solution would be to make the spacing setup more rigid by welding a plate between the two spacers or welding the spacers to the back side of the tool, or both. That way, there will only be a shear load on the bolts, and no need to do the bolts up particularly tight.

The distance from the centre of the crankshaft sprocket to the two rear primary case bolt holes is about 262mm (260.99 and 262.87 for the upper and lower holes respectively - for those of the obsessive compulsive pedantic persuasion  ;)) so the load at the end of the torque arm when 100Nm is applied to the nut will be 381N (about 39 kg). That's spread over two bolts in shear. By doing a few more sums, the shear stress in each M6 bolt works out to be about 14MPa. Mild steel will handle around 600Mpa in shear before it will deform, so the bolts are nowhere near over-loaded. Even if you have to apply 200Nm or more to the nut to undo it, you still have a big safety margin.

I think I'll modify my tool to look something like Mr Wagner's.

Cheers,
Cam
 
Why react the force through any part of the bike? I can't see the point in that (unless you are a one armed mechanic of course and need the assistance).

Why not just use a long lever (to hand) - as SB and I do? Must be easier to make a tool and safer for the bike? All the forces are then contained in the nut/crank/sprocket.

(Assuming Wagner's method) I would be more worried about damaging the Alu crankcase than shearing the steel screws.
 
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