Me and my Laverda Cico 1200... year 1992

I would love to get my T140v back from 20-plus years after it disappeared, such a great ending. How the hell did you do that
 
Ilovemotolaverda said:
Ciao ragazzi, non ci crederete!!! Mentre sto lavorando in uno strepitoso progetto Special Laverda 1200, ho ritrovato la Laverda 1000 che mi avevano rubato quasi 20 anni fa😃😃😃 e con la quale ho condiviso con gli amici motociclisti parte della mia vita mototuristica... un autentico miracolo.
Hi guys, you won't believe it!!! While I'm working on an amazing Special Laverda 1200 project, I found the Laverda 1000 that had been stolen from me almost 20 years ago😃😃😃 and with which I shared part of my motorbike touring life with my biker friends... a real miracle.
Click to expand...
Bravo Alberto Bravo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I am pretty sure you are wrong here Paul. We need to differentiate between the statue of limitations (thief is not known - what time do you have to find the thief and make him/her responsible) or the execution of a title agains a person. I assume that the thief in this case wasn't known for the past 20 years, which would cause the former owner to not having a title. In this case, the period is - depending on the crime - 10 or less years in italy, 5 in germany to find that thief and raise a claim. I doubt you have 30 years to find out who actually stole your bike and then raise a claim against him, but I am no lawyer. Maybe Paul LeClair can better explain it.

30 years is only valid if you have a title against a person that owes you money f.e., at least in Germany...
 
Laverdalothar said:
I am pretty sure you are wrong here Paul. We need to differentiate between the statue of limitations (thief is not known - what time do you have to find the thief and make him/her responsible) or the execution of a title agains a person. I assume that the thief in this case wasn't known for the past 20 years, which would cause the former owner to not having a title. In this case, the period is - depending on the crime - 10 or less years in italy, 5 in germany to find that thief and raise a claim. I doubt you have 30 years to find out who actually stole your bike and then raise a claim against him, but I am no lawyer. Maybe Paul LeClair can better explain it.

30 years is only valid if you have a title against a person that owes you money f.e., at least in Germany...
Click to expand...
I live in France.
You live in Germany
Paul Le Clair is a Canadian lawyer.

I can tell you about a 750 SFC that miraculously appeared 30 years nearly to the day after having been declared stolen.

Incidentally, my professional liability is 30 years as well. Though it may have gone down to 20 now.

Paul
 
Paul Marx said:
I live in France.
You live in Germany
Paul Le Clair is a Canadian lawyer.

I can tell you about a 750 SFC that miraculously appeared 30 years nearly to the day after having been declared stolen.

Incidentally, my professional liability is 30 years as well. Though it may have gone down to 20 now.

Paul
Click to expand...

We are both right. As the case you described is older than 2008, the 30 years are correct. For any new case in France, it seems now to be 5 years. See:

Avant la loi de 2008, le délai de prescription de droit commun en matière civile était de trente ans215
.
Ce délai était considéré comme trop long et inadapté à notre société moderne, il a donc été réduit à
cinq ans. C’est un délai subjectif et ne vise que les « actions personnelles et mobilières ». L’imprécision de cette notion est d’ailleurs l’objet de vives critiques doctrinales. Il s’applique à toutes
les obligations, quelque soit leur nature (contractuelle, délictuelle ou extracontractuelle).

source (page 53, Point 1.1.3): https://www.bj.admin.ch/dam/bj/de/d...en-sir-d.pdf.download.pdf/gutachten-sir-d.pdf

As far as I could see, Italy is as stated above. Not sure though how the status was 20 years ago, am no lawyer.
 
Laverdalothar said:
We are both right. As the case you described is older than 2008, the 30 years are correct. For any new case in France, it seems now to be 5 years. See:

Avant la loi de 2008, le délai de prescription de droit commun en matière civile était de trente ans215
.
Ce délai était considéré comme trop long et inadapté à notre société moderne, il a donc été réduit à
cinq ans. C’est un délai subjectif et ne vise que les « actions personnelles et mobilières ». L’imprécision de cette notion est d’ailleurs l’objet de vives critiques doctrinales. Il s’applique à toutes
les obligations, quelque soit leur nature (contractuelle, délictuelle ou extracontractuelle).

source (page 53, Point 1.1.3): https://www.bj.admin.ch/dam/bj/de/d...en-sir-d.pdf.download.pdf/gutachten-sir-d.pdf

As far as I could see, Italy is as stated above. Not sure though how the status was 20 years ago, am no lawyer.
Click to expand...
More precisely, vol simple, délai de prescription de 6 ans, vol aggravé, délai de 20 ans.

Paul
 
Laverdalothar said:
I am pretty sure you are wrong here Paul. We need to differentiate between the statue of limitations (thief is not known - what time do you have to find the thief and make him/her responsible) or the execution of a title agains a person. I assume that the thief in this case wasn't known for the past 20 years, which would cause the former owner to not having a title. In this case, the period is - depending on the crime - 10 or less years in italy, 5 in germany to find that thief and raise a claim. I doubt you have 30 years to find out who actually stole your bike and then raise a claim against him, but I am no lawyer. Maybe Paul LeClair can better explain it.

30 years is only valid if you have a title against a person that owes you money f.e., at least in Germany...
Click to expand...
Not entirely correct (at least for Germany):

If someone steals your bike, you are still the owner (Eigentümer). Ownership never cedes. There is a statute of limitations though. After thirty years you will still be the owner, but can't claim your bike back any more. Those thirty years do not start on the day of the theft. They start on the 1st of January of the year following the year you had knowledge of the theft. So if your bike was stolen December 31st 2000 and you discover the theft on January first 2001 your claim ends December 31st 2031.

After the theft the thief is the Possessor (Besitzer). If the stolen bike is sold five times, the fifth buyer is then the possessor. But you are still the owner. So if your bike is discovered you will get it back. The last buyer then has legal claims toward the thief (and/or the last seller who knew it was a stolen bike) - but of course his chances of redeeming those claims are slim (if the thief is even known). That claim (Schuldtitel) is valid thirty years as you said. Hardly ever comes through though, as those people rarely ever come into "official" money again.

This is only true for objects, but not for money.

It's different when you cede possession of your bike willingly (like lend it to a friend or hand it over to a restorer or even have a potential buyer not return from a testride). Then the good-faith buyer actually can have ownership.

This varies greatly in other countries. Some countries actually have a statute of limitations on ownership, some even very short, like three years in Belgium AFAIK. In some countries you retain the right to get your bike back, but have to compensate the current possessor.

The statute of limitations on the prosecution of the theft itself is only five years btw.
 
Laverda1000.de said:
Not entirely correct (at least for Germany):

If someone steals your bike, you are still the owner (Eigentümer). Ownership never cedes. There is a statute of limitations though. After thirty years you will still be the owner, but can't claim your bike back any more. Those thirty years do not start on the day of the theft. They start on the 1st of January of the year following the year you had knowledge of the theft. So if your bike was stolen December 31st 2000 and you discover the theft on January first 2001 your claim ends December 31st 2031.

After the theft the thief is the Possessor (Besitzer). If the stolen bike is sold five times, the fifth buyer is then the possessor. But you are still the owner. So if your bike is discovered you will get it back. The last buyer then has legal claims toward the thief (and/or the last seller who knew it was a stolen bike) - but of course his chances of redeeming those claims are slim (if the thief is even known). That claim (Schuldtitel) is valid thirty years as you said. Hardly ever comes through though, as those people rarely ever come into "official" money again.

This is only true for objects, but not for money.

It's different when you cede possession of your bike willingly (like lend it to a friend or hand it over to a restorer or even have a potential buyer not return from a testride). Then the good-faith buyer actually can have ownership.

This varies greatly in other countries. Some countries actually have a statute of limitations on ownership, some even very short, like three years in Belgium AFAIK. In some countries you retain the right to get your bike back, but have to compensate the current possessor.

The statute of limitations on the prosecution of the theft itself is only five years btw.
Click to expand...
It highly depends on the circumstances. Yes, if the bike still exists, it is yours forever - unless the insurance company f.e. has compensated you, then it's theirs...
but also if it was not stolen but not returned. In that case it is not theft but embezzlement, which is something totally different. There is even a case where you brought the bike f.e. to a dealer but have not collected it back. After 5 years, the dealer can claim ownership of the bike (as a compensation f.e. for storing it properly for 5 years).
We also discussed here not the return of the bike but asking money/compensation for it. That is timewise limited how long you can ask for it, believe it or not... You have to raise the title within 2 years between 2 private persons. If you don't know how to do it as you don't know who stole the bike - how can you raise a title?? You can not raise a title against "unknown"...
So - if you find the thief after more than 7 years f.e. but the bike still is lost, he goes free as a) the crime itself is time-barred (verjährt), b) you haven't raised a title within 2 years after the theft against that particular person and c) with that, you have nothing to ask for.
You are right though that if the bike surfaces (or clearly identifyable parts of it) and you haven't been compensated by an insurance company, they still belong to you, as no one can get ownership on stolen goods.
 
Hey Alberto I just hear of this thread and of course your esteemed good luck, it is truely is amazing my friend and such excellent news.
Funny thing I also have Oscam’s on mine too as I think they suit it … but I have an RGS front guard. Now look if you come across another front guard like the one on your bike please think of me as I would really like to have one for it.

Righty oh which leads me to a little story in that I did buy a front guard and some body work in the UK a good few years back now, but as I understand it they are still sitting in a certain person‘s shed in the UK ( who will remain nameless on here but its been jota exhausting waiting for him to ship them to me just quietly ) It may not be 20 years yet but at the rate things are going it may well end up being that. Perhaps one day I too will have the good luck .. after all am Irish so it has to count for something right. 😂
 

Attachments

  • 74869D21-8074-4B13-97AB-FC81E00FC915.jpeg
    74869D21-8074-4B13-97AB-FC81E00FC915.jpeg
    301 KB · Views: 24
Laverdalothar said:
It highly depends on the circumstances. Yes, if the bike still exists, it is yours forever - unless the insurance company f.e. has compensated you, then it's theirs...
but also if it was not stolen but not returned. In that case it is not theft but embezzlement, which is something totally different. There is even a case where you brought the bike f.e. to a dealer but have not collected it back. After 5 years, the dealer can claim ownership of the bike (as a compensation f.e. for storing it properly for 5 years).
We also discussed here not the return of the bike but asking money/compensation for it. That is timewise limited how long you can ask for it, believe it or not... You have to raise the title within 2 years between 2 private persons. If you don't know how to do it as you don't know who stole the bike - how can you raise a title?? You can not raise a title against "unknown"...
So - if you find the thief after more than 7 years f.e. but the bike still is lost, he goes free as a) the crime itself is time-barred (verjährt), b) you haven't raised a title within 2 years after the theft against that particular person and c) with that, you have nothing to ask for.
You are right though that if the bike surfaces (or clearly identifyable parts of it) and you haven't been compensated by an insurance company, they still belong to you, as no one can get ownership on stolen goods.
Click to expand...
Partly wrong again.

"Die Verjährung ist in den §§ 194 ff. BGB geregelt. Die regelmäßige Verjährungsfrist beträgt drei Jahre. Sie beginnt mit Ende des Jahres, in dem der Anspruch entstanden ist und der Gläubiger Kenntnis von der Person des Schuldners und den Anspruchsvoraussetzungen erlangt."

So it's three years from the end of the year you received knowledge of the person you have a claim against. Which you usually won't have of a thief until he/she is caught. Anywho, those three years cover debts from regular business dealings. Compensation (Schadenersatz) has a statute of limitations of 10 years.

As for insurance cover, of course that's part of their policy: You don't get compensation AND your bike back. After they pay you, it is not your bike anymore.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top