Me and my Laverda Cico 1200... year 1992

[Vince]

I have an insurance policy that pays me and the bike is still mine, very common with specific historic insurance here in oz.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Partly wrong again.

"Die Verjährung ist in den §§ 194 ff. BGB geregelt. Die regelmäßige Verjährungsfrist beträgt drei Jahre. Sie beginnt mit Ende des Jahres, in dem der Anspruch entstanden ist und der Gläubiger Kenntnis von der Person des Schuldners und den Anspruchsvoraussetzungen erlangt."

So it's three years from the end of the year you received knowledge of the person you have a claim against. Which you usually won't have of a thief until he/she is caught. Anywho, those three years cover debts from regular business dealings. Compensation (Schadenersatz) has a statute of limitations of 10 years.

As for insurance cover, of course that's part of their policy: You don't get compensation AND your bike back. After they pay you, it is not your bike anymore.

Good luck trying to claim something from a 20 years or more old case. I haven't seen ANY such case in my whole life... I also think you used the wrong paragraph...:

"Die Diebstahl (§ 242 StGB) verjährt gem. § 78 III Nr. 4 StGB in fünf Jahren. Die Verjährung beginnt mit Beendigung der Tat, wird aber durch viele Ereignisse unterbrochen, z.B. durch die erste Vernehmung des Beschuldigten, den Strafbefehl oder jede Beauftragung eines Sachverständigen durch den Richter oder Staatsanwalt, wenn vorher der Beschuldigte vernommen oder ihm die Einleitung des Ermittlungsverfahrens bekanntgegeben worden ist." This means in return: if they can not find the thief (der Beschuldigte), there is nothing that keeps the timeframe to interrupt or end or whatsoever.

This is for the theft itself and does not cover your civil right to raise a claim against someone. 194 does not really help here, but§ 199 BGB https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/199.html

It clearly states that the start of the "Verjährung" starts with the end of the year that the reason for the claim has occured => the year of the theft.

It goes up to 10 years for normal things (like a bike...) and only sees 30 years for damages to your body, your health or live f.e.

There is no mention at all that I can see (please send me the text passage if I am wrong) where it states that the "Verjährung" starts when you find out who actually stole your bike f.e.. It starts with the end of the year that the bike got stolen. So - if it was stolen 25 years ago f.e. in February of 1997, the "Verjährung" starts end of 1997 - no matter if you know who stole your bike of not - and ends 10 years later => 2007, December 31st!

 

[Laverda1000.de]

"Die Diebstahl (§ 242 StGB) verjährt gem. § 78 III Nr. 4 StGB in fünf Jahren. Die Verjährung beginnt mit Beendigung der Tat, wird aber durch viele Ereignisse unterbrochen, z.B. durch die erste Vernehmung des Beschuldigten, den Strafbefehl oder jede Beauftragung eines Sachverständigen durch den Richter oder Staatsanwalt, wenn vorher der Beschuldigte vernommen oder ihm die Einleitung des Ermittlungsverfahrens bekanntgegeben worden ist." This means in return: if they can not find the thief (der Beschuldigte), there is nothing that keeps the timeframe to interrupt or end or whatsoever.

This is for the theft itself and does not cover your civil right to raise a claim against someone. 194 does not really help here, but§ 199 BGB https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/199.html

It clearly states that the start of the "Verjährung" starts with the end of the year that the reason for the claim has occured => the year of the theft.

It goes up to 10 years for normal things (like a bike...) and only sees 30 years for damages to your body, your health or live f.e.

There is no mention at all that I can see (please send me the text passage if I am wrong) where it states that the "Verjährung" starts when you find out who actually stole your bike f.e.. It starts with the end of the year that the bike got stolen. So - if it was stolen 25 years ago f.e. in February of 1997, the "Verjährung" starts end of 1997 - no matter if you know who stole your bike of not - and ends 10 years later => 2007, December 31st!

Hi,

you keep mixing totally different things. One is

Verjährung der Straftat im StGB (Penal code). Which is as you have written above. The State will not prosecute theft after 5 years.

the other

Verjährung des Schadenersatzanspruches nach BGB (Civil code). I wrote "Die Verjährung ist in den $$ 194 ff. BGB geregelt." That means 194 AND following in legalese. Regarding §199 it helps if you don't just quote half the first sentence.

(1) Die regelmäßige Verjährungsfrist beginnt, soweit nicht ein anderer Verjährungsbeginn bestimmt ist, mit dem Schluss des Jahres, in dem

	1.	der Anspruch entstanden ist und
	2.	der Gläubiger von den den Anspruch begründenden Umständen und der Person des Schuldners Kenntnis erlangt oder ohne grobe Fahrlässigkeit erlangen müsste.

(2) Schadensersatzansprüche, die auf der Verletzung des Lebens, des Körpers, der Gesundheit oder der Freiheit beruhen, verjähren ohne Rücksicht auf ihre Entstehung und die Kenntnis oder grob fahrlässige Unkenntnis in 30 Jahren von der Begehung der Handlung, der Pflichtverletzung oder dem sonstigen, den Schaden auslösenden Ereignis an.


(3) 1Sonstige Schadensersatzansprüche verjähren

	1.	ohne Rücksicht auf die Kenntnis oder grob fahrlässige Unkenntnis in zehn Jahren von ihrer Entstehung an und
	2.	ohne Rücksicht auf ihre Entstehung und die Kenntnis oder grob fahrlässige Unkenntnis in 30 Jahren von der Begehung der Handlung, der Pflichtverletzung oder dem sonstigen, den Schaden auslösenden Ereignis an.

2Maßgeblich ist die früher endende Frist.

Absatz 1 Satz 2 means that you have to have knowledge of the circumstance AND the person you have a claim against before the statute of limitations of three years starts.

Absatz 3 Satz 1 means that claims other than those covered in Absatz 1 (eg where you didn't know who you have a claim against) have a statute of limitations of 10 years.

Which then means that if your thief is made known to you after 9 years and 11 months you have just one month to make your claim -> discovering the thief would usually start the 3 three years limit, but it will definitely end after 10 years.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Hi,

you keep mixing totally different things. One is

Verjährung der Straftat im StGB (Penal code). Which is as you have written above. The State will not prosecute theft after 5 years.

the other

Verjährung des Schadenersatzanspruches nach BGB (Civil code). I wrote "Die Verjährung ist in den $$ 194 ff. BGB geregelt." That means 194 AND following in legalese. Regarding §199 it helps if you don't just quote half the first sentence.



Absatz 1 Satz 2 means that you have to have knowledge of the circumstance AND the person you have a claim against before the statute of limitations of three years starts.

Absatz 3 Satz 1 means that claims other than those covered in Absatz 1 (eg where you didn't know who you have a claim against) have a statute of limitations of 10 years.

Which then means that if your thief is made known to you after 9 years and 11 months you have just one month to make your claim -> discovering the thief would usually start the 3 three years limit, but it will definitely end after 10 years.

I wrote above that the first thing (5 years) is for the theft itself.

Regarding the other point, your conclusion seems to be the same as mine - so where am I mixing things up, please? 10 years is the limit - no matter what. Not 30 years.

What ever - nice discussion, but I think we reached a point where it doesn't make sense for others some posts ago ;-) let's take it offline if you want to continue to discuss ;-) Maybe in German, misunderstandings are easier to avoid

 

[Dellortoman]

If the bike has found its way back to its original owner, what is he going to claim anyway? The only loss he's suffered is 20 years of use of the bike and whatever damage or wear the bike has suffered in the meantime, but it appears to have been well looked after. With no legal recourse, just suck it up and count your blessings that it found its way home.

If any justice is to be meted out, it'll need to be outside the purview of any legal system - like in a dark alley with a couple of brawny mates. Not that I'd advocate such a course of action.