No Spark after Washing

2

2Types

Junior member
Location
Wales
Washed my new 1200 mirage yesterday. I thought I was careful around the electrics and all the lights etc still work and fuses look ok. It was running fine before always starting first push. It went to start then failed. Then on second attempt got a couple of backfires through the exhaust. Have left it in the dehumidified garage overnight and no spark today at least on the outside two cylinders. Have taken the stator cover off and looks dry and have given it a low temp hairdryer to make sure.

Suggestions on fault finding order would be welcome.
 
How did you wash it , I would avoid things like jet washers , even the rechargeable type .
With no sparks then start with the plugs , HT leads and work your way back to the coils / Ignition unit under the tank or side panels making sure all connections are dry and secure . Also check the battery connections .
Don`t turn the engine over without making sure the plugs are earthed .
 
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When visiting the Isle of Man TT a few years ago, I took my Jota on a trailer and was placed on the outer decks of the Ben-my-Chree (the infamous ferry). It was covered in salt water. I decided to take it to the Shell station near Quarterbridge to wash off the salt, and drove it down from the paddock down to the station as it was a nice day. I left the bike running as I gently washed the bike but then it stopped. I tried my best to coax it into life, blowing air over all electrical bits, but no joy. I walked back up to the paddock (a BIG hill !) and drove back down with the trailer. Out of curiosity I thought I'd try it again, and lo and behold the sunshine had dried it out and she started up ! I drove it onto the trailer and hit the kill switch. The engine continued to run. I took the key out. The engine continued to run. I tied the bike down and drove my diesel audi up Bray hill with the Jota on the trailer running at 4,000 revs. The best sounding Audi ever as one pedestrian noted !
 
Would help to know what ignition is fitted. I don't know if the early Mirage was fitted with original black box CDI (HKZ) system under the tank or whether they were all late enough for the later BTZ system. The latter is usually pretty waterproof although spark plug caps and leads can be susceptible to shorting our when wet. I'd try pulling all 3 plugs to check for spark with them earthed...need to know if it's completely dead or only the outer two not sparking.
I assume we're talking series 1 (Bosch alternator) and not series 2, given your hairdryer comment? How much water did you flood over the crankcase under the starter motor area?
 
Rob said:
Would help to know what ignition is fitted. I don't know if the early Mirage was fitted with original black box CDI (HKZ) system under the tank or whether they were all late enough for the later BTZ system. The latter is usually pretty waterproof although spark plug caps and leads can be susceptible to shorting our when wet. I'd try pulling all 3 plugs to check for spark with them earthed...need to know if it's completely dead or only the outer two not sparking.
I assume we're talking series 1 (Bosch alternator) and not series 2, given your hairdryer comment? How much water did you flood over the crankcase under the starter motor area?
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It is BTZ. I tried not to get water around the starter motor as I had read before that this can be a problem. Have now got it in a dry garage so hopefully that will help if it is just water ingress. Just hope I have not blown the black box.
 
I have a 1979 series 1 Mirage with the CDI ignition. Problems starting when wet usually happen when moisture gets into the multiplug connecting the CDI unit to the wiring loom. Years ago seaspray grease used to be applied around the plug to stop this from happening. Now ignition sealant is available in aerosols and does the same thing. The other problem with engines not stopping can be failure of the stop relay although this usually also causes them not to start in the first place. I see that this problem is on a BTZ system but water in connections could still apply.
 
OK so BTZ means no black box to worry about! They were/are very susceptible to damp. Your two silver boxes are usually pretty reliable and their connectors are filled with dielectric/silicone grease.

So best course of action is to remove the tank, pull the plugs and check for sparks with them earthed on the camcover. If no sparks at all, then this suggests lack of 12v supply to the ignition system. You'd be unlucky to have two pickups or two coils / BTZ boxes fail at the same time.

If the centre plug is sparking but not the outers, then try swapping the BTZ boxes over.

Is your Mirage series 1 or 2 (latter has ND alternator and pickups on/in primary chaincase)?

My comment re water was clutching at straws...possible ingress to the alternator/series 1 triggers down the wiring under the starter. There is a drain hole tho', as well as a rubber seal.
 
Good opportunity to check a lot of your electrical connections, every old bike is always due for wiring maintenance! It will probably fix itself in the dry garage, but you have a bad joint somewhere.. and they have a habit of showing up again on a rainy night far from home, or in the middle of a busy intersection.

Or have you accidentally soaked the air filter?
Or maybe damaged the fragile perished pickup wiring?
 
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Confirmed no spark on all three plugs.
Have used the hair dryer extensively and had the dehumidifier on max so after 48 hours I think any water is long gone.
Have checked continuity and all things seem to be good, power where it should be when ignition on etc.
Resistance across coils about 3ohms.
Resistance across pick ups about 60ohms
Before trying new BTZ units (plus swearing a lot and a few tears) any other suggestions of what/how to check that I did not manage to blow both.
 
I have NGK BR9EIX in my 750GT I assume these should be ok to test for a spark rather than a running test

Can I test the pick ups by turning the crank will they go to zero or low resistance as the trigger goes by or does it need to be at speed?
 
Pickup resistance won't change. What you need to do is check voltage output from each trigger as you crank the engine. You should see a small voltage pulse (depending on your voltmeter) of up to 5v.

Doubt that you'd lose two pickups or two BTZ boxes at same time. More likely you're losing supply somewhere along the common feed. Where did you check 12v supply?

You haven't said whether your bike is series 1 or 2?
 
2Types said:
I have NGK BR9EIX in my 750GT I assume these should be ok to test for a spark rather than a running test

Can I test the pick ups by turning the crank will they go to zero or low resistance as the trigger goes by or does it need to be at speed?
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NGK 9 is way too cold for a GT. You could probably use 7s on today's fuel.
Does the R indicate a resistor plug? In which case, you shouldn't have resistor plug caps.
Do as Ian suggests, use new plugs.

What plugs are you using in that 1200?

Paul
 
Rob said:
Pickup resistance won't change. What you need to do is check voltage output from each trigger as you crank the engine. You should see a small voltage pulse (depending on your voltmeter) of up to 5v.

Doubt that you'd lose two pickups or two BTZ boxes at same time. More likely you're losing supply somewhere along the common feed. Where did you check 12v supply?

You haven't said whether your bike is series 1 or 2?
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I believe it is a 1980 registered series 1 as the ignition is on the RHS and there is no round lump on the LHS casing.

I traced the power through all live points so at resistors, coils, the 7 way chocolate box connector and the plugs on the BTZ units.

Will check the output pulse tomorrow - thanks
 
Paul Marx said:
NGK 9 is way too cold for a GT. You could probably use 7s on today's fuel.
Does the R indicate a resistor plug? In which case, you shouldn't have resistor plug caps.
Do as Ian suggests, use new plugs.

What plugs are you using in that 1200?

Paul
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The 750GT only went on the road on Saturday and only run for 2 x 1 mile trips to the MOT station and back. Did check plugs when got back one was grey and was was more black. It did not get properly warm but i suspect the RH cylinder (black plug) was not running clean as it did not pick up straight away when accelerating it seemed one pulled and the other took time to come in. Could be carb set up but need to give it a proper run to find out.

I am using a premium 99 octane fuel with also Millers ethanol stabiliser and in theory a +2 octane enhancer.

In the Mirage are NGK B8E S. It seemed to run fine and started first prod before the wash - although \I only picked it up on Friday so again only 2 x 1 mile runs to validate.

I did some research on the plugs but what does everyone normally run in the 750 and also their Mirages.
 
2Types said:
The 750GT only went on the road on Saturday and only run for 2 x 1 mile trips to the MOT station and back. Did check plugs when got back one was grey and was was more black. It did not get properly warm but i suspect the RH cylinder (black plug) was not running clean as it did not pick up straight away when accelerating it seemed one pulled and the other took time to come in. Could be carb set up but need to give it a proper run to find out.

I am using a premium 99 octane fuel with also Millers ethanol stabiliser and in theory a +2 octane enhancer.

In the Mirage are NGK B8E S. It seemed to run fine and started first prod before the wash - although \I only picked it up on Friday so again only 2 x 1 mile runs to validate.

I did some research on the plugs but what does everyone normally run in the 750 and also their Mirages.
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B7ES was a bit of a pun but not that far off.

I run B8ES in all my big Laverda including the 750s which used B9s before unleaded fuel came in more than 20 years back. I now use therefore B8s.
Of course, do not use resistor plugs.
Gijs van Dijk has pointed out that modern fuels kill plugs and need hotter grades. I and others can confirm. My 750 S would kill a plug every few starts with B9s, B8s are fine and that with a massive 10 points less that spec pilot jets.

Keep away from fuel additives. Their only use is feeding the bank accounts of the producers and they kill plugs with alarming regularity.

If the bikes you've just bought weren't used very regularly, carbs may well be gummed up as the plug colours on the GT would lead to believe.

Paul
 
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