SF2 brake upgrade?

[CDHE]

My old calipers are in need of an overhaul, and I'm hoping for feedback on whether an upgrade from the stock F08 calipers to later model 4-piston calipers is worth the trouble. Do the originals provide sufficient stopping power for modern roads with distracted drivers? Would I be going down an expensive rabbit hole of not only needing to replace the master cylinder, but also upgrading the discs to full floaters? Thanks in advance for you insights!

 

[The Sock]

What follows is a personal opinion based on my forty-seven years of ownership of my Triple:
Despite the protestations of others: floating 320mm discs, Goldline calipers and the like, I never really felt that my bike was underbraked.
However, after a chance conversation with Malcolm Cox about a TT-1 RGS replica he was building, I thought I might give the Brembo four pots, as fitted to the BMW R1200C, a try.
I sourced a set, taken from a 38,000 miler, at a cost of £138/$175.
On my Ceriani forked bike, all that is needed ar a couple of 5mm. spacers, each side and a set of 5mm. longer bolts, to attach them with.
They vastly improved the retardation but, more especially, the degree of feel.
I cannot imagine that I would ever go back to the PO8s, myself, but I have retained them, in case the bike's second custodian is more interested in originality than rideability.

 

[CDHE]

What follows is a personal opinion based on my forty-seven years of ownership of my Triple:
Despite the protestations of others: floating 320mm discs, Goldline calipers and the like, I never really felt that my bike was underbraked.
However, after a chance conversation with Malcolm Cox about a TT-1 RGS replica he was building, I thought I might give the Brembo four pots, as fitted to the BMW R1200C, a try.
I sourced a set, taken from a 38,000 miler, at a cost of £138/$175.
On my Ceriani forked bike, all that is needed ar a couple of 5mm. spacers, each side and a set of 5mm. longer bolts, to attach them with.
They vastly improved the retardation but, more especially, the degree of feel.
I cannot imagine that I would ever go back to the PO8s, myself, but I have retained them, in case the bike's second custodian is more interested in originality than rideability.

View attachment 85046

Thanks. That seems like a better route than going with the gold Brembos with the 65mm bolt spacing and an adaptor, and there's a nice looking set on ebay for $145. Did you use the stock master cylinder or change out as well?

 

[iis_iis]

What follows is a personal opinion based on my forty-seven years of ownership of my Triple:
Despite the protestations of others: floating 320mm discs, Goldline calipers and the like, I never really felt that my bike was underbraked.
However, after a chance conversation with Malcolm Cox about a TT-1 RGS replica he was building, I thought I might give the Brembo four pots, as fitted to the BMW R1200C, a try.
I sourced a set, taken from a 38,000 miler, at a cost of £138/$175.
On my Ceriani forked bike, all that is needed ar a couple of 5mm. spacers, each side and a set of 5mm. longer bolts, to attach them with.
They vastly improved the retardation but, more especially, the degree of feel.
I cannot imagine that I would ever go back to the PO8s, myself, but I have retained them, in case the bike's second custodian is more interested in originality than rideability.

Second that, only for reason of low cost used Japanese parts being available, went with Nissin, 4 pots ( Honda SP2 type, less than AU$150 including Master and used brake pads ). Correct about the "feel" factor Mr Sock, its what makes the change from old 08's alone, let alone the improved braking operation.

Saved a mate when riding my bike, matter of a few feet braking distance, can make the world of difference in hitting something and getting away with only a scare. Then i went for the whole deal, Nissin master setup, adjustable lever span, micro switch for brake light activation, easy to air bleed et al. Owners perspective, as ever these types of changes are. j.

 

[Vince]

I did everything except change the discs after hating the horrible abrupt grabbing feel mine had. And then someone pointed out the bump mine had on the Master Cylinder where the lever touched the piston. 30 seconds with a file improved the feel so much. Sure it's now MUCH more powerful with the 4 spot Brembros, 16mm radial Master and braided lines improving their feel as well but just that smoothing of that bump did a hell of a lot as well. Std was 4 fingers, now it's 2.

 

[sfcpiet]

Once the original calipers and M/C are rebuilt with new pads and modern brake hoses are fitted, a half-decent braking performance can be expected, quite adequate for todays traffic conditions. Just as much attention needs to be applied to the actual lever, I come across absolutely horrible bodges and neglect. I would recommend replacing the cast iron rotors with stainless steel items, most cast iron discs are worn and/or warped anyway, with pads to suit. Lucas/TRW carbon/ceramic are my favourite, they work well hot or cold, wet or dry. Replacing the PS15 M/C with a PS14 improves braking performance and enhances feel at the lever, but at the sacrifice of short lever travel. No problem if you like a mushy lever, as opposed to a well defined pressure point.

Floating discs of the same diametre and material of the originals will not improve brake performance. They even often have the disadvantage of inferior heat transfer.

Want even more brake? Then you need bigger discs and optimal caliper and M/C pairing. This will very quickly overwhelm the weedy Ceriani fork, opening another can of worms.

piet

 

[piranha-bro2]

Amazing to consider just how superior the 08s were considered to be back in the 70s. And back then I was tolerating (NOT!) a std SF1 front brake. Plenty of power in 08s with everything set up well, and definitely a better feel going to a 14mm master. Consider that a K2 Honda had a single piston caliper on a single horrible stainless disc and a Z1 not much more.

The blue spot R1 4-piston monobloc calipers (2nd hand from US Ebay for a pittance back when postage was affordable) on the SFQ with 320mm Brembo floaters (996 also very affordable from Gumtree) and a Brembo radial m'c (std Yamaha Brembo - came free with R1 clipons!) are incredible - most braking is one finger. They're taking some getting used to but more because I'm unaccustomed to them that they lack feel - loads of feel.

 

[The Sock]

Thanks. That seems like a better route than going with the gold Brembos with the 65mm bolt spacing and an adaptor, and there's a nice looking set on ebay for $145. Did you use the stock master cylinder or change out as well?

Yes, it is the original Brembo master cylinder.

 

[Exmoor beast]

My Guzzi has same calipers and I felt the brakes were lacking..changed the thirty year old pads ( still hardly worn) and they work better than when the bike was new! Pads are massively overlooked and have got a lot better over the years.

 

[wavey_davey]

"Floating discs of the same diametre and material of the originals will not improve brake performance. They even often have the disadvantage of inferior heat transfer."

Er, why are they fitted to nearly all modern bikes then?
The switch to a floating disc with no other changes on my old Triumph improved FEEL massively.
The actual down side (pads being potentially knocked back creating longer lever travel) has never been a problem even on my ex race Harley (yes, really ) which didn't even have anti rattle spring washers on the discs. Heat transfer just isn't an issue.
Standard, rebuilt twin brembos on my Mirage with stainless lines and modern pads had loads of power but would lock the front end frequently on greasy London streets, a horrible experience.

Upgrading the single F08 on the original BMW R80/100GS to the caliper in the photo above is/was a standard upgrade to the horribly underbraked original. I did it on a friend's and it was a huge improvement.

 

[Jo]

I second Piet’s post. Together with a 14mm Nissin M/C this is exactly what I’m using on my 3c and it works a treat.

When I got my 3c it had dull kind of "wooden-feel" brakes, braking performance was just not adequate. Now I have a well-functioning brake that satisfies me even with a sporty driving style and/or pass rides with luggage.



With the 14mm Nissin M/C the ratio improves from 1:22.9 to 1:29.5, as the original 15mm Brembo is in fact 15.88mm in diameter.

In case I'd look for further improvements I’d follow Hamish’s route, but currently no need to.

Cheers,
Jo

 

[Paul Marx]

Whatever your braking system, you can always do better. Quite a few examples given above.
You'll never stop that Ceriani fork from flexing under hard braking, and the better the brakes, the more the fork and frame will appear dated.
Paul

 

[Alzero]

What follows is a personal opinion based on my forty-seven years of ownership of my Triple:
Despite the protestations of others: floating 320mm discs, Goldline calipers and the like, I never really felt that my bike was underbraked.
However, after a chance conversation with Malcolm Cox about a TT-1 RGS replica he was building, I thought I might give the Brembo four pots, as fitted to the BMW R1200C, a try.
I sourced a set, taken from a 38,000 miler, at a cost of £138/$175.
On my Ceriani forked bike, all that is needed ar a couple of 5mm. spacers, each side and a set of 5mm. longer bolts, to attach them with.
They vastly improved the retardation but, more especially, the degree of feel.
I cannot imagine that I would ever go back to the PO8s, myself, but I have retained them, in case the bike's second custodian is more interested in originality than rideability.

View attachment 85046

I see that the calipers are mounted backwards, with the smaller piston trailing. I wonder if they would feel better/worse, work better/worse mounted to the rear of the forks with the small piston leading? I can recall when the 4-pots first came out and the manufacturers made a big deal about the reasons for the unequal sized pistons.

 

[Vince]

You don't get much fork flex even with improved brakes if you trail brake in a controlled way instead of hammering them hard at the last minute. We locally have that much Police presence most of my riding uses The Pace method that uses high corner speeds and hardly any serious braking or accelerating. Or how to have fun and keep your licence.

The Pace

From the archives: Riding tips from Nick Ienatsch from the November 1991 issue of Motorcyclist magazine.

www.motorcyclistonline.com

 

[Alzero]

I’ve been riding at the Pace for years, ever since I read that article, it helps to have a motor that actually has engine braking……like a Laverda. It rewards smoothness which I try to carry over to my car driving too.

 

[Vince]

There is a lot of California Superbike school in it as well, e.g. using 3rd gear and no brakes on tight windy roads. Scary as hell at first but great fun once you get used to it.

 

[Alzero]

It was Ienatsch’s biggest contribution to motorcycling. When I had my bike shop I spent a few afternoons with him, he’s a nice guy and a real journalist, not a Moto-journalist, if you know what I mean? The guy who replaced him, not so much…..

Ienatsch had integrity, all the other guys from the bike mags just wanted free stuff in exchange for articles in their magazines. It was a business and I was down with that if that was what it took. But don’t tell me you are going to promote me in exchange for my services and then not follow through. If I Quid, you had better Pro Quo!

 

[Vince]

To me there were 2 types, the press release rewrites and the under-the-skin riders and word smith types. The latter were few, in Oz Mr Smith, The Bear, Kel Werne, Tony Kirby and one or 2 others. My favourite was John Roberson from Performance Bike. I was completely addicted to Bike Mags from all countries and types but when the Net arrived and you could connect with really specific info of interest I suddenly realised how boring recycled press releases were.

 

[Paul Marx]

You don't get much fork flex even with improved brakes if you trail brake in a controlled way instead of hammering them hard at the last minute. We locally have that much Police presence most of my riding uses The Pace method that uses high corner speeds and hardly any serious braking or accelerating. Or how to have fun and keep your licence.

The Pace

From the archives: Riding tips from Nick Ienatsch from the November 1991 issue of Motorcyclist magazine.

www.motorcyclistonline.com

The question was: brakes on modern roads with distracted drivers. Not braking techniques, more life saving tactics, including two up from time to time.
Paul.

 

[CDHE]

Ordered the Beemer calipers and will look into master cylinder ratios and pad options on Vintage Brake. com
I really how these conversations often go off the rails, and into new territory like the Pace article. Thanks.